10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[parallel]

And at the end of it, Rossi may have a "working" E-Cat, but that does not mean he has not been full of shyte.

If the man has invented something that will change the whole world, he is full of "shyte" because the almighty you didn't like how he went about it?
what great things have you done lately?

[Skipjack]

Yeah, lets just wait and see whether Defkalion can actually produce their working E-cat. I am still waiting for the publication of the test results, which as we were told would be made public. Where are they?

[Betruger]

And at the end of it, Rossi may have a "working" E-Cat, but that does not mean he has not been full of shyte.

If the man has invented something that will change the whole world, he is full of "shyte" because the almighty you didn't like how he went about it?
what great things have you done lately?

Not derail what couldve been a clear step forward for the world with "game changing" if not revolutionary technology, with endless nonsensical cloak and dagger and posturing over what after all -- and consider what we've got here and now since this whole affair started: NOTHING CONCRETE -- is plain simple technology, not politics.

[KitemanSA]

You are missing the point. I said:

All Rossi's substantive comments which can be checked have proved false.

I have asked for ONE such substantive statement that has been "proved" false. Please. I did read thru that list of "statements" that seemed fairly consistent (different than I thought, but self consistent given the passage of time and potential for changing plans). I saw on statement by SOMEONE ELSE that contradicted Rossi's statements. That doesn't "prove" Rossi has lied.
What substantive comment has been "checked and proven false"? I really would like to see one. Just one, PLEASE!

[tomclarke]

You are missing the point. I said:

All Rossi's substantive comments which can be checked have proved false.

I have asked for ONE such substantive statement that has been "proved" false. Please. I did read thru that list of "statements" that seemed fairly consistent (different than I thought, but self consistent given the passage of time and potential for changing plans). I saw on statement by SOMEONE ELSE that contradicted Rossi's statements. That doesn't "prove" Rossi has lied.
What substantive comment has been "checked and proven false"? I really would like to see one. Just one, PLEASE!

Forgive me, but I never stated anywhere that Rossi had EVER made any substantive statements.

I can understand you wanting to see something, but since he contradicts himself regularly, and you treat this as the original comment having wiggle-room, you are not likely to find one.

Therefore - you agree my comment (in bold above) is correct? You see if none of his comments have substance, as you claim is the case for these four, then they do not contradict my statement even if not proven false. In fact, by definition, a comment so loose cannot be proven false.

Let me restate the matter, because i reckon these 4 comments are the nearest Rossi has ever got to substantive claims. Rossi, in the four cases above, made an announcement which would if taken at face value give credibility his claims. In fact these announcements are the only validation I can remember existing other than the clearly busted "demos". Now you say that these statements should be interpreted loosely - essentially viewed as BS.

He says he has arranged for NASA to test is device, and NASA says that it will not do that because after the initial arrangement Rossi changed his mind and demanded very large amounts of money from NASA for the privilege of doing so. You say that was not initially a lie, because "circumstances change".

Fair enough. But in that case no statement Rossi makes about his device can be taken at face value. "The device has heated a factory for a year" could mean "The device was installed and operational in a factory for a year, which included other heating". After all even with no power generated, the device will function as a heater because of the input power.

I'm happy to say Rossi is a technologically illiterate terminally slippery BSer but not a liar over all these issues. Either way we cannot trust a word he says.

[ladajo]

And at the end of it, Rossi may have a "working" E-Cat, but that does not mean he has not been full of shyte.

If the man has invented something that will change the whole world, he is full of "shyte" because the almighty you didn't like how he went about it?
what great things have you done lately?

Hehe.

[KitemanSA]

You are missing the point. I said:

All Rossi's substantive comments which can be checked have proved false.

I have asked for ONE such substantive statement that has been "proved" false. Please. I did read thru that list of "statements" that seemed fairly consistent (different than I thought, but self consistent given the passage of time and potential for changing plans). I saw one statement by SOMEONE ELSE that contradicted Rossi's statements. That doesn't "prove" Rossi has lied.
What substantive comment has been "checked and proven false"? I really would like to see one. Just one, PLEASE!

Forgive me, but I never stated anywhere that Rossi had EVER made any substantive statements.

EXCELLENT back-pedal!!
Odd, you claim he is a liar because every substantive statement has been proven false, but then you claim you aren't wrong because you never claimed he made substantive statements.
In this case, perhaps you are one of those long slimy things. (No, not snakes, they have backbones. In this case I'm thinking more wormy.)

I can understand you wanting to see something, but since he contradicts himself regularly, and you treat this as the original comment having wiggle-room, you are not likely to find one.

Show me ONE that isn't explainable by simple passage of time and change of plans. Please.

Therefore - you agree my comment (in bold above) is correct? You see if none of his comments have substance, as you claim is the case for these four, then they do not contradict my statement even if not proven false. In fact, by definition, a comment so loose cannot be proven false.

Wow, worthy of a cabalist, but more slimy. "He is a liar because no statement has been proven false." WHAA???

Let me restate the matter, because i reckon these 4 comments are the nearest Rossi has ever got to substantive claims. Rossi, in the four cases above, made an announcement which would if taken at face value validate his claims. In fact these announcements are the only validation I can remember existing other than the clearly busted "demos". Now you say that these statements should be interpreted loosely - essentially viewed as BS.

So where is the "proven false" that isn't explainable by simple change in plans? Sounds almost like you are saying, "I don't like the way he talks, I hate him and all he says, it must be evil, it must be a lie, it has been proven false".

Plans sometimes do not come to pass. Indeed, that is why every press release these days by any company in the US that talks about future plans is accompanied by a "Forward Looking Statement" disclaimer. That is so idiots like what you seem to be at this point, don't sue them for "false advertising".

He says he has arranged for NASA to test is device, and NASA says that it will not do that because after the initial arrangement Rossi demanded very large amounts of money from NASA for the privilege of doing so. You say that was not initially a lie, because "circumstances change".

Absolutely. Nor is it subsequently a lie. Mixed signals, a-kilter short-hand, maybe. But not "proven a lie".

Fair enough. But in that case no statement Rossi makes about his device can be taken at face value. "The device has heated a factory for a year" could mean "The device was installed and operational in a factory for a year, which included other heating. After all even with no power generated, the device will function as a heater because of the input power.

I'd say you were a fool if you did take any of his statements at face value. He does SEEM adept at allowing people to draw their own wrong conclusions. But this does not "prove" him a liar.

I'm happy to say Rossi is a technologically illiterate terminally slippery BSer but not a liar over all these issues. But for our purposes there is no difference between the two.

I'd be happy to agree that Rossi appears to be a technologically illiterate terminally slippery salesman but not a liar over all these issues. And for our purposes there is a significant difference in cogitation capability when we confuse the two. It SEEMS that at this point you are perhaps a tad less closed to the possibility that he actually has something. Whoa there, I said a TAD. Maybe a nano-bit.

At this point, there is NO NEED to have "decided" anything about the veracity of the E-Cat. I'm sure you have opinions about the issue. But please don't let "opinions" substitute for "facts" in your thought processes.

[Ivy Matt]

Show me ONE that isn't explainable by simple passage of time and change of plans. Please.

I'll allow that the failure of a certain credible U.S. institution that starts with an N to validate Rossi's E-Cat may be explainable by simple passage of time and change of plans...but change of whose plans?

Further, I'll note that circumstantial evidence would seem to indicate that Rossi told Sterling Allan (or Sterling Allan let himself believe—a rather likely possibility, I'll admit) that a certain credible U.S. institution that starts with an N had validated Rossi's E-Cat, and that the validation was "successful". Of course, I suppose that could have been a different credible U.S. institution that starts with an N.

[tomclarke]

Forgive me, but I never stated anywhere that Rossi had EVER made any substantive statements.

EXCELLENT back-pedal!!
Odd, you claim he is a liar because every substantive statement has been proven false, but then you claim you aren't wrong because you never claimed he made substantive statements.
In this case, perhaps you are one of those long slimy things.

No, I'm just somone who uses language carefully, and did logic a long time ago.

"Every substantive statement (that has been checked) has been proven false" is enough for me.

You have not yet said you agree with this.

You see, if you are claiming that Rossi has never said anything substantive, then perhaps he is not a liar, no-one should be expecting miracle E-cats from him because he has never said this. Right?

Actually he has said it. And wriggled out of showing it. Whenever his statements have been checked, they are false or worthless.

I don't see what is slimy about this? Except Rossi.

And since he has given the strong impression of making substantive statements, if not a liar, he is the next worst thing.

Now I'll let you have that he is not a liar, if you agree that he consistently makes statements which sound good but are worthless. The statements like "my E-cats work" which have not been checked (OK - the demo E-cats did not work but maybe he has improved them since then!) sound good. But since all the checkable substantive statements are false or worthless you would have to be weird to expect the as yet not checked statements to be worth anything.

Which leaves the wait-and-seers with absolutely nothing. You might as well believe anyone making random claims.

[Kahuna]

Paul Story puts his e-Cat blog on hiatus with some thoughts that represent a pretty reasonable position IMO:

http://ecatnews.com/?p=2184

[tomclarke]

Paul Story puts his e-Cat blog on hiatus with some thoughts that represent a pretty reasonable position IMO:

http://ecatnews.com/?p=2184

He is honest and explains why he had such an exaggerated belief initially (and still does). He can't imagine that so many reputable people could not be taken in if it was not true.

He does acknowledge the blindingly obvious that for whatever reason Rossi/DTG behave in a way totally consistent with their being fraudulent.

Not a good historian, or he would not be surprised at how easily clever and respectable people can fall for this sort of thing.

In fact I think the basis of most believers arguments here is a failure of (psychological) imagination, together with an aristotelian view in which people must be totally trustworthy or total villains.

[ladajo]

Kite, please stop being so cantakerous. It is obvious that you continue to bait folks to spoon feed you there own research on the topic, as much as it is obvious (and self admitted) that you do not do it own your own.

It is down right trolling for fish to behave the way you are with this.

Ross has clearly lied about certain things, as well as misrepresented many more. Pathologically so. Just because you personally haven't seen him steal the cookie, does not me he did not do it. It just means you haven't bothered at all to seek objective evidence either way.

If you ever took the time to look at what Rossi himself has said and done over the last year and a half, you would see CLEAR and DIRECT lies, later discounted by him, with further misrepresentations and deceptive behaviours. But, alas, I know that you will not go look for yourself, because you can't be bothered, and that would also take the fun out of baiting others with word spin and legalise, just like Rossi does.

Rossi directly documented lies:
To wit: I am making, selling, and there are E-Cats operating in the US.
To wit: I am not making nor have sold, or are operating any Ecats in the US.
To wit: I have a factory(s) in production in the US.
To wit: I have no operating factory(s) in the US.

To wit: I am using only my own money.
To wit: I am funded by purchases.
To wit: I am no-longer in charge of the company, there is a trust I must answer to0.
To wit: It is my company, and I get to pick who does what, when and where.

To Wit: I have sold and shipped 14 ( or whatever) 1MW plants.
To wit: I have not sold any 1MW plants.
To wit: I have sold one, now that they have seen it operate succesfully, and it is 'gone' and they have taken delivery.
To wit: It is not gone, but only sold, as it is not ready. So it remains in my test facility.
To wit: They have not bought it yet until we finish with gaskets and instruments.
To wit: We are partnered with National Instruments
To wit: We are not partnered with NI
To wit: National Instruments, "We did the same with Rossi, as we do with any potential customer. Reviewed needs, offer product suggestions"

To wit: NASA will test and verify Ecat, I will pay them to do the testing.
To wit: NASA must pay me ridiculous $$ for the honor to test Ecat

To wit: UoB works with me.
To wit: UoB, "We do not work with Rossi"

recently To wit: I must travel back and forth, and when in Italy I spend time working with UoB

To wit: UoB, "We have no aggreement, and do not work with Rossi. He was to pay us to test the Ecat for him. He has not paid."
To wit: Rossi, "I will pay for UoB to test Ecat with the sale of the 1MW plant money."
To wit: UoB, "We would be happy to test Ecat for Rossi, but we will make public any findings"

To wit: Rossi, "anyone who wants to test Ecat must pay me for it."
To wit: Dick Smith, "I'll pay you $1 million if it works in a repeat of a test you have done"
To wit: Rossi, "I don't want your money, and you can't test it"

To wit: Rossi, "The 1MW is operating in the North East USA, and soon anyone of the qualified public can go see it."
To wit: Rossi, "I get to pick who will see the 1MW"
To wit: Rossi, "The 1MW is a military project, no one can go see it. But I have sold more 1MWs, and soon I will pick special people to go see them operating"

And many many more.

Rossi is FULL-O-SHYTE.

YOU ARE WRONG. He is a proven liar and he has and is ADAPTING his lies and misrepresentations as the situation warrants.

Anyone want to go peek in the window of the Bologna warehouse? I bet the 1MW is still sitting there. But I bet the rented 500KW generator is gone.

Rossi now has a clear predictable pattern. Delay and obfuscate. Delay and Obfuscate. Outrageous claim, attached to a name dropping. Alter story, alter story, blame others, alter story, blames others. Delay and obfuscate, delay and obfuscate....wash rinse, repeat continually.

[ladajo]

Here is a good one:

If I was so inclined, I would ferret out out put this info on a timeline of compared Rossi statements, and I am sure it would show once again, ROSSI IS FULL OF SHYTE.

Jami, As have posted many time here before – I have been in contact with someone who passed over 6 figure sum for rights to resell home eCats in 2 countries.
.
The person visited Rossi in Miami & whislt there asked to see the factory. Rossi said no due to security concerns. The person accepted this blindly & still paid over the money. This person later went to Italy and met Rossi there & Rossi showed him the 1MW plant.
.
He didn’t test it or trial it he just went to look at it.
.
I have stopped communicating with this person because I can’t think of anything kind I can say to him.
.
DSM

http://ecatnews.com/?p=2184

[tomclarke]

To wit: I am using only my own money.
To wit: I am funded by purchases.

This was commented at the time, and is particularly funny. Basically whenever Rossi wanted to seem heroic and unfraudulent he said he was self-funded, mortgaged the house, etc. Then when he wanted to add "I've sold stuff" credibility he boasted about all the external funding he was getting. He exhibits the same behavious over scientific issues, saying at any time whatever seems most advantageous with no regard to consistency or truth. I've seen 5 year olds do better.

Objectively, the time he spent on self-publicity via blog and on demos means that he must have been wanting something from the public. Money fits the bill.

[tomclarke]

Here is a good one:

If I was so inclined, I would ferret out out put this info on a timeline of compared Rossi statements, and I am sure it would show once again, ROSSI IS FULL OF SHYTE.

Jami, As have posted many time here before – I have been in contact with someone who passed over 6 figure sum for rights to resell home eCats in 2 countries.
.
The person visited Rossi in Miami & whislt there asked to see the factory. Rossi said no due to security concerns. The person accepted this blindly & still paid over the money. This person later went to Italy and met Rossi there & Rossi showed him the 1MW plant.
.
He didn’t test it or trial it he just went to look at it.
.
I have stopped communicating with this person because I can’t think of anything kind I can say to him.
.
DSM

http://ecatnews.com/?p=2184

Prima facie fraud - or Rossi has perjured himself to US NRC officials? But perhaps the person defrauded will be too embarrassed to press the issue...