10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

rcain wrote:some interesting papers from 17th International Conference on "Cold Fusion" ( Aug. 12-17, 2012, Daejeon, Korea) just published:

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/conference ... F-17.shtml

in particular:

ICCF-17-Godes-Controlled-Electron-Capture-Paper - http://newenergytimes.com/v2/conference ... -Paper.pdf

and

ICCF-17-Mosier-Boss-Its-Not-Low-Energy-Paper - http://newenergytimes.com/v2/conference ... -Paper.pdf

caught my eye.
His caught mine.
Brillouin's lattice stimulation reverses the natural decay of neutrons to protons and Beta particles, catalyzing this endothermic step.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

rcain
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Post by rcain »

MSimon wrote:
rcain wrote:...in particular:

ICCF-17-Godes-Controlled-Electron-Capture-Paper - http://newenergytimes.com/v2/conference ... -Paper.pdf
...
...
Brillouin's lattice stimulation reverses the natural decay of neutrons to protons and Beta particles, catalyzing this endothermic step.
funny, we were just discussing McKubre a few posts/pages ago. i don't think this was the paper/experiment Krivits had such a problem with. (though i may be wrong).

here McKubre is suggesting he expects to achieve Q>200% very soon. which would be fantastic if he can prove it, and pass peer review.

must say, scanning through these papers, i am (still) quite encouraged that there really 'is' something going on here in LENR world.

Rossi however, is in an entirely different category all of his own. Notably he hasn't shown his face at this conference. (nor has Levi - though another Italian team led by Celani, et al was presenting - i think they are nothing to do wth Uni Bologna).

keep watching this space.

ps. yes, 'this "endothermic" step' - slightly ambiguous grammar, is all, i think.
Last edited by rcain on Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

rcain
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Post by rcain »

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cg66
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Post by cg66 »

Runs in....pours some gasoline on the fire...

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/10/leona ... at-report/

...runs out....

paperburn1
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Post by paperburn1 »

cg66 wrote:Runs in....pours some gasoline on the fire...

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/10/leona ... at-report/

...runs out....
Me too
I find two inconsistencies in the numbers:
1) If the test lasted 328 hours (or 336 full) and if the average input power was 2.4 kW, the total input energy was then 787 kWh, not 278 kWh.
2) With 14.337 kW output power and 328 hour duration gives output energy of 3915 kWh, if the input power (average 2.4 kW) is first subtracted. This a more than the quoted 3268 kWh.

If we believe in the 2.4 kW average input power, the average COP is then 14.337/2.4 = 6, instead of 11.7.

The output power 14.337 seems consistent with the cylinder dimensions. It seems that some below-unit emissivity was also included although it doesn’t appear in the formulas. Power lost by convection and the cylinder endcaps is ignored so the real output power should be somewhat larger.

If the “average 2.4 kW” refers to non-ssm only (rather than average over the whole measurement as I understood it), it changes the numbers, but still they do not match with 11.7 COP.

There is also one probably typo: in one place the times is given as 228 hours which probably means 328 h.

Although the COP comes out as being much larger than unity no matter how one computes it from these numbers and the test time is impressively long, the inconsistencies are big enough that one should ask Rossi for clarification.

dkfenger
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Post by dkfenger »

The 228 probably isn't a typo - the actual error seems to be 'Self sustaining mode operating time: 118 hours'. This appears to be the amount of time that the power was applied, instead, so the 228 h is the self-sustain time, the 118h is the 'heating' time. Total: 336h of the test.

278.4kWh / 118h = 2.359 kWh average power during powered phase

Energy produced is figured only over the 228h that the reactor was in self-sustaining mode, 14.337kWh * 228h = 3268.8kWh.

Whether or not the measurements are any good is another matter. Average T is listed as 1050C, but no information is given on range of variation, which matters a lot given the T^4 term. (Back-figuring from the calculations shown I get T = 1297.94 K or 1024.78C, not the 1050C in the notes.)

The black body calculation seems correct: T^4 * ( Stefan–Boltzmann constant) * surface area in m^2.

It would be interesting to see imagery from the IR camera to get a sense of how much variation there was in external temperature.

And of course - is black body radiation really a good way to calculate the energy output? How much energy will be carried off by convection around a 1050C cylinder 33cm by 8.6cm? How much energy is reflected back by the surrounding equipment?

paperburn1
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Post by paperburn1 »

So we seem to be back to that worn out old line one more time. Ambiguous data and a lack of a fact descriptor leaving one to assume the correct answer. :cry: but one can assume your answers to the hours mismatch are correct. At least they make the math work, but having been down this well traveled path before I can not help but thing something is still glitchy with this idea.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

[FINAL UPDATE] Corrected (again) Pordenone Hot Cat Report
October 13, 2012


I have received from Andrea Rossi another correction to the Hot Cat Report, along with this message:

Dear all:
Last typo left: the ssm has been 218 hours, not 118
Besides: the energy produced has been cut of 30% to subtract all the possible margins of error.
Warm Regards,
Andrea

The corrected report is in full below.

LEONARDO CORPORATION

REPORT ON THE INTERNAL TEST PERFORMED ON THE “HOT CAT”



Report date: October 9th 2012

NOTICE : THIS REPORT IS ISSUED BY LEONARDO CORPORATION, NOT BY A THIRD PARTY. TESTS PERFORMED BY AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY WILL BE RELEASED UPON COMPLETION OF THE SAME.

IN THE PRESENT REPORT, WE ARE PRESENTING DATA OBTAINED BY US THROUGH A PARALLEL TEST PERFORMED WITH THE SAME INSTRUMENTATION USED BY SAID THIRD PARTY, ON THE SAME REACTOR, THE SO-CALLED “HOT CAT”.

PLEASE CONSIDER THESE FIGURES AS THOSE WE REASONABLY EXPECT TO SEE CONFIRMED IN THE FORTHCOMING INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY TEST.

THE REACTOR WAS MANUFACTURED IN THE USA.

MEASUREMENT INSTRUMENTATION WAS CHOSEN SUBSEQUENTLY TO THE SWEDISH TEST PERFORMED ON SEPT. 6TH.

MEASUREMENTS WERE THEREFORE PERFORMED WITH THE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE PRECISION, AVOIDING THE USE OF AMP CLAMPS AND VOLTMETERS, IN PLACE OF WHICH THE INSTRUMENT DESCRIBED IN ATTACHMENT # 2 (MODULATED BY A VARIAC INSTEAD OF A TRIAC POWER SOURCE) WAS USED.

DATA

Please take note of the data format: a period “.” is used to indicate the decimals and a comma “,” to indicate the thousands, not vice versa as in many countries; for instance, 2,000.00 means “two thousand point zero hundredths”.

REACTOR DESCRIPTION

The reactor is a cylinder having the following dimensions:

Length: 33 cm

Diameter: 8.6 cm

(See photos in the Penon Report attached)

Surface: 891 cm2

The internal cylinder has been eliminated; energy measurements were performed on the external surface only, through the Stephan-Boltzmann equation.

Weight without charge: 4331 g

Weight before test: 4351 g

Weight after test: 4350 g

Charge weight: 20 g

Test started: Sept 25th at 08.00 AM

Test completed: Oct 9th at 08.00 AM

Total duration of the test: 336 hours

OPERATION

Time from reactor startup to full power: 4 hours

Reactor shutdown time: 4 hours

Net operation time for stabilized reactor: 328 hours

TEMPERATURES

Average room temperature: 25 °C

Temperature reached after 4 hours: 1050 °C

Average temperature for the following 328 hours: 1050 °C

POWER CONSUMPTION

Self-sustaining mode operation, total time: 218 hours

Peak power consumption: about 5 kW

Average power consumption: about 2.4 kW (two point four kW)

TOTAL ENERGY CONSUMED

kWh 278.4

ENERGY PRODUCED

T(°K)4 = 2.838 * 1012

Wh = 2.838 * 1012 * 5.67 * 10-8 * 8.91 * 102 * 10-4 = 14.337 Wh * h-1 (fourteen point three hundred and thirty-seven kWh per hour)

TOTAL ENERGY IRRADIATED

kWh 3.268

COP

3.268/278.4 = 11.7 (eleven point seven)

POWER DENSITY

163.4 MW * kg-1 (one hundred and sixty-three point four MWh per kg)

(see the Ragone Plot at p. 15 of the Penon Report attached)

INSTRUMENT USED FOR MEASURING

TEMPERATURE ON THE EXTERNAL SURFACE:

Optris PI 160 Camera (see Attachment 1)



INSTRUMENT USED FOR MEASURING POWER

CONSUMPTION DURING THE TEST

Tursdale Technical Services, PCE-830 (See Attachment 2)



EXTERNAL REACTOR SURFACE COATING

Black paint, proprietary formulation, resistant up to 1200° C, made specifically for Leonardo Corp. by Universokrema, Treviso, Italy.

This test is under scrutiny by an independent third party.

DIRECTOR OF THE TEST:

DR. ANDREA ROSSI

I have no reason to doubt that the third party test results will be published by the end of the year. If the above measurements are confirmed we have something as good as anyone could hope for and I expect that applications will move forward rapidly.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

the third party test results will be published by the end of the year
Another pointless announcement by Rossi, another 2 month delay for the arival of the 3rd party test results.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

I have no reason to doubt that the third party test results will be published by the end of the year.
What good reason do you have to not doubt? Rossisaid?

What will you say when the "independant tests" (quoted oh-so-many times Rossisaids in the last years) do not show up again as he claims now?

And you are once again giving Rossi slack to post an irresponsible ambiguos and JV report, that now he can publically "correct" as many times as he wants to remove stupidity and make it more believable?

Oh my...Reason has left the building...it is apparently going to have lunch with Elvis.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

parallel
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Post by parallel »

Ladajo,
What good reason do you have to not doubt? Rossisaid?
One reason is that you keep saying he won't. And you are usually wrong.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

Regarding the last important test performed on Hot Cat, you have read and widespread the report released from Rossi, anticipating in some way the document that will be released and signed from an independent third party. Here below I would underline some important points regarding such a report.

But, first of all, I would like to clarify some general aspects regarding “self-sustaining” referred to an E-Cat apparatus. When an E-Cat is in “self-sustaining mode”, it means that the reactor absorbs zero energy in input: so, a power meter registers only the electricity needed for the controls, i.e. a few watts.
Well, you can run an E-Cat in: (1) continuous or (2) intermittent self-sustained mode.

The first case is used sometimes for the experimental work but never in front of an audience, as it is unstable, but very impressive because you can reach high COPs: 100-200. So, it is not used in the E-Cats on the market, which operate in an intermittent self-sustained mode with a (guaranteed) COP 6, a very safe and stable condition. I have seen the E-Cat working for long periods in this last modality.

An E-Cat working in intermittent self-sustaining mode is substantially similar to an electric iron, because it alternates phases of on-off regarding the electric input power, but with the difference that an E-Cat produces heat by itself even when it does not absorb electric power.

As the last test on Hot Cat aimed to obtain a (very) conservative estimate of its COP, it was conducted in intermittent self-sustained mode, the same used in a real product. Not considering at all the energy output dissipated by convection and conduction – which accounts for at least a 10-15% more – the measurements clearly show that the guaranteed COP 6 is fully satisfied also for this type of E-Cat!

Indeed, Rossi said that the duration of self-sustained mode, in this test, has been of 218 hours, not 118 as appeared in the first versions of the report for a typo, and the produced energy cited in the document has been cut of 30% to subtract all the possible margins of error. This means a minimum COP near 12.

Please note the simplicity of all energy measurements, made with a top class instrument for the electric input and a thermal camera also used in the military field – and with a 1% accuracy – for estimating the radiative component of the thermal output. Prudently, a below-unit emissivity has been assumed, instead of the correct value “1” for a black body, so the calculated COP is clearly underestimated.
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/10/repor ... ldo-proia/

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

So now you think that a Rossimarketer is a reliable scientific source?

I wonder what you will be saying in January when Rossi still has squat and more obfuscation.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

parallel
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Post by parallel »

Ladajo,
I certainly view him as a more reliable source than you.
I have no doubt what you will be saying if the third party confirms his results. You will claim that you always thought it possible.
That we should just ignore all the ignorant, libelous crap you have posted about Rossi over the months.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

parallel wrote:Regarding the last important test performed on Hot Cat, you have read and widespread the report released from Rossi, anticipating in some way the document that will be released and signed from an independent third party. Here below I would underline some important points regarding such a report.

But, first of all, I would like to clarify some general aspects regarding “self-sustaining” referred to an E-Cat apparatus. When an E-Cat is in “self-sustaining mode”, it means that the reactor absorbs zero energy in input: so, a power meter registers only the electricity needed for the controls, i.e. a few watts.
Well, you can run an E-Cat in: (1) continuous or (2) intermittent self-sustained mode.

The first case is used sometimes for the experimental work but never in front of an audience, as it is unstable, but very impressive because you can reach high COPs: 100-200. So, it is not used in the E-Cats on the market, which operate in an intermittent self-sustained mode with a (guaranteed) COP 6, a very safe and stable condition. I have seen the E-Cat working for long periods in this last modality.

An E-Cat working in intermittent self-sustaining mode is substantially similar to an electric iron, because it alternates phases of on-off regarding the electric input power, but with the difference that an E-Cat produces heat by itself even when it does not absorb electric power.

As the last test on Hot Cat aimed to obtain a (very) conservative estimate of its COP, it was conducted in intermittent self-sustained mode, the same used in a real product. Not considering at all the energy output dissipated by convection and conduction – which accounts for at least a 10-15% more – the measurements clearly show that the guaranteed COP 6 is fully satisfied also for this type of E-Cat!

Indeed, Rossi said that the duration of self-sustained mode, in this test, has been of 218 hours, not 118 as appeared in the first versions of the report for a typo, and the produced energy cited in the document has been cut of 30% to subtract all the possible margins of error. This means a minimum COP near 12.

Please note the simplicity of all energy measurements, made with a top class instrument for the electric input and a thermal camera also used in the military field – and with a 1% accuracy – for estimating the radiative component of the thermal output. Prudently, a below-unit emissivity has been assumed, instead of the correct value “1” for a black body, so the calculated COP is clearly underestimated.
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/10/repor ... ldo-proia/
Ho, ho.

Does anyone other than me notice Rossi's love of weird measurement methods for power out?

Water vaporisation enthalpy - unreliable because no way to know how much output water is vapour.

Thermocouple on housing - unreliable because thermal contact with hot reactor as well as cold output water.

IR camera estimating temperature from IR component of tube covered by "specially formulated" black paint. Ummm - could we see emmisivity spectrum and match this with IR camera sensitivity please? The assumption is made that this is the same as black body. All we need is a thermocouple on the tube surface and calibration so that at least we know tube temp is compatible with BB assumption.

I mean - why not have ONE test of the original low power e-cat with obvious calorimetry problems ruled out. That is not so difficult.

Interestingly, Rossi has also got into trouble with measurement of power in. Hardly a difficult thing to do. He could save a lot of PR effort, and spend less time on his blog, if he had just one carefully conducted verified test. But then maybe this is not compatible with COP > 1?

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