Crunching the numbers

[jcoady]

http://gigaom.com/2012/02/03/crunching- ... ar-fusion/

[Skipjack]

The article makes the too common mistake of rating the NIF as a reactor research project. It is primarily a defense project and thus funded accordingly.

[GIThruster]

NIF was originally pitched as a stepping stone to a death ray so was indeed gathering DOD funds (though through DOE) but the Cold War was over before it was begun and its continuing financial support has all come through DOE, so it's hard to see it really as a defense project. In short yes, it was originally justified in that way but no, it is not so justified these days. Far from it. That's why so many want to shut it down.

[Skipjack]

It is still contuing to be justified by defense applications. They just made an announcement recently that they were going back to focusing on the defence applications of it (as if something different was ever the case).

[Joseph Chikva]

The article makes the too common mistake of rating the NIF as a reactor research project. It is primarily a defense project and thus funded accordingly.

I do not think that there is mistake.
From the beginning in 60s or 70s when people began talk about inertial confinement they was going to take some “hohlraum” (target) and to pump energy via either: laser, electron beam, light ions beam or heavy ions.
Laser - National Ignition Facility
Electron and Light Ions programs were canceled
Heavy Ions program - under consideration as heavier projectile would transfer energy more effectively.
Yes, the fact of financing by DOD means some military interest. But initially that also was a fusion program.

[ladajo]

Joe,
NIF is primarily and has always been a weapons research project.
You are missing the point of the project entirely. The "energy" side was/is (less now) simply a marketing trick.

[GIThruster]

That's silly. NIF is not a weapons research project. The lasers are more than 5 generations old and can't be used as weapons. You need to start parsing out what people say in order to get research funds and what is actually the case. It was never the case that NIF had defense applications. It doesn't. That's what the Senators were told to get the funding. All the real laser defense work happens at Kirtland and has for decades.

[Netmaker]

NIF has always been a weapons research project. Just not the type of weapons you're thinking about.

With the signing of the Comprehensive Test Ban treaty we needed methods to ensure that our nukes were still reliable and also a potential means of designing and testing new nukes virtually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockpile_stewardship

[Joseph Chikva]

Joe,
NIF is primarily and has always been a weapons research project.
You are missing the point of the project entirely. The "energy" side was/is (less now) simply a marketing trick.

If so, that is the most indistinct and unclear project. Have you any idea what type of weapon system are they developing?
Yes, you can say "secret information".
But I can not imagine what can be hiden behind well known facilities built on base of rather old idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility

[Skipjack]

NIF has always been a weapons research project. Just not the type of weapons you're thinking about.

With the signing of the Comprehensive Test Ban treaty we needed methods to ensure that our nukes were still reliable and also a potential means of designing and testing new nukes virtually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockpile_stewardship

Exactly that is what they are using it for. The energy component was always an afterthought.

[Skipjack]

Joe,
NIF is primarily and has always been a weapons research project.
You are missing the point of the project entirely. The "energy" side was/is (less now) simply a marketing trick.

If so, that is the most indistinct and unclear project. Have you any idea what type of weapon system are they developing?
Yes, you can say "secret information".
But I can not imagine what can be hiden behind well known facilities built on base of rather old idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility

it is for testing nukes without nukes...

[GIThruster]

NIF has always been a weapons research project. Just not the type of weapons you're thinking about.

With the signing of the Comprehensive Test Ban treaty we needed methods to ensure that our nukes were still reliable and also a potential means of designing and testing new nukes virtually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockpile_stewardship

Exactly that is what they are using it for. The energy component was always an afterthought.

NIF doesn't need laser upgrades for the people working there to do these calculations. If NIF were closed down, many of these same folks would just move over to Sandia or some such and continue doing stewardship, so stewardship is not a rationalization for NIF, nor was it the reason it was built.

Conversely, NIF was designed during the Cold War when a death ray was being sought and Senators were sold on the project based upon the then interest in all things Star Wars.

[Joseph Chikva]

Joe,
NIF is primarily and has always been a weapons research project.
You are missing the point of the project entirely. The "energy" side was/is (less now) simply a marketing trick.

If so, that is the most indistinct and unclear project. Have you any idea what type of weapon system are they developing?
Yes, you can say "secret information".
But I can not imagine what can be hiden behind well known facilities built on base of rather old idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility

it is for testing nukes without nukes...

Ok thanks.
But I understand Russians when they talk something like: "We can not win in technology race in precession guided weapons. We even start losing to Chinese. So, we should further improve our nuke fist".
But have US the need of improvement the weapon that will never used?

[Joseph Chikva]

The energy component was always an afterthought.

I am out of home for some days.
But I have Russian translation of English book "Inertial Confinement" written in 70s.
As soon as I will return home I will note you the publisher, author and publishing year.
You are wrong. Fusion was initial goal.

[KitemanSA]

Joey,
The distinction is between "inertial confinement" as a technology and "NIF" and its DoE predecessors as facilities.