10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

chrismb
Posts: 3161
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

AcesHigh wrote:
rcain wrote:This whole Rossi-Focardi business is starting to make me quite angry. If they have something worthwhile, I believe they have a DUTY to show CREDIBLE evidence, and save us all this useless speculation.
if the internet existed back in 1900, people would be saying exactly the same thing about the Wright Brothers, from 1903 (when SUPPOSEDLY they flew for the first time) until around 1908, when they did their FIRST public flight.
That's exactly what happened.

Similar also happened with Ronald Richter.

The Wright Bros. went on to give a full patent disclosure and became famous. Richter was found out to be a con man who convinced a whole nation and its President that he was doing real experiments.

Your point seems to be that to play in the real world you need to play the game - like a full patent disclosure.

chrismb
Posts: 3161
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

Incidentally, Wright Bros. flights were public for a long while, but they just kept quiet about it. IIRC: They rented a farmer's field to do development work in, and folks would idle on by and take a look. I recall seeing a NYT article of around 1905 [obviously - a reproduction of original publication!] where the reporter went to take a look himself after hearing reports that they were 'flying'. He reported that the reports were false because all they did is pull a kite off the ground and circle around a field a few times.

So what they were doing wasn't even recognised as 'flying' at the time! This'll be the same for Rossi; if he does get commercial power installed [hey - I have a powerful imagination, guys!!!] then people will still be doubting it for years to come even if they visit the power station. This is why even a working reactor pumping out kWh isn't enough for it to become 'accepted', it must be a fully disclosed idea that anyone can try to reproduce.

My own work parallels the Wright Bros approach; I, like they, found a very cool initial reception and consequently took a path of just not shouting about it. The point/motivation for doing this is that when it comes time to describe the work, there will [hopefully] be no need for fudging nor hiding anything at all because the issues will have already been explored and [patented] solutions explained. That's not being secretive - like Wright Bros, the work could be found but it just wasn't pushed down the public gullet, like Rossi is doing. What's the benefit of the way he is going about this, if he already has his backers? He should get on with it, and shut up about it unless he's ready to discuss it.
Last edited by chrismb on Fri May 13, 2011 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

tomclarke
Posts: 1683
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:52 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Post by tomclarke »

parallel wrote:Tom,
You seem to be assuming that Dr. Levi is either incompetent or untrustworthy.
He maybe, but I have no reason to think so and prefer to start by giving the benefit of the doubt.

When you look at a lot of published papers, supposedly peer reviewed, you see they don't even look at the data most of the time. Climate science is (in)famous for this. But many people just take their word for it. Why do you consider this a special case? Because you don't think cold fusion exists?
It is about priors.

Cold fusion does not fit into any experimentally supported framework. Not just the Coulomb barrier, but that all the other stuff you'd expect is not observed. The experimental data for it (incl Rossi) is fragmentary and incoherent. (I'm including W-L - which has its own issues and is also not consistent with Rossi befor/after isotopic ratio experimental results).

Put that with the extreme difficulty of finding any theory to get over Couomb Barrier and that is a very high improbability.

To make any CF likely you need some combination of cast-iron experimental evidence & plausible theory (if you had a plausible theory the experimental evidence could be less strong).

Rossi fraudulent is much more likely than CF. And his actions are inconsistent with him being sensible and having what he claims.

GW is different. The "theory" is in no way improbable. We know CO2 causes GW and has v significantly increased. We know there are feedbacks. What the overall feedback factor is, and hence whether we expect 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2C warming for current CO2 levels is incredibly complex. Whether the current models are good enough to predict this is also complex, whether the historical data is good enough to support this prediction is similarly complex.

the point is that it is not one theory, it is a whole load of different theories and assumptions. Some obvious physics. Some more flakey. each of which is supported by different things. And then the models, using all this, have their own issues.

Evaluating this is really difficult. You and the blogs and cherry-picked papers you like to read are I expect neither unbiassed nor sufficiently expert to do this.

But suppose there is no merit to the models. Then we just don't know whether feedbacks are positive, or how much, so the fact of significant AGW, though in no way proven, would not be inherently unlikely - as would be the fact of CF.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Then we just don't know whether feedbacks are positive, or how much, so the fact of significant AGW, though in no way proven, would not be inherently unlikely - as would be the fact of CF.
In AGW positive feedbacks are a real problem. I have never seen a satisfactory explanation of why the Earth didn't "overheat" when atmospheric CO2 was 7,000 ppm. 7,000/400 = 17.5 - about 4 doublings. At 2 C per doubling - AGW is possible. At 5 C per doubling? No way. So your topping out at 2 C means we are starting to get convergence. Excellent!

In nature negative feedbacks dominate. The question is - as you point out - at what level? By how much?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

cg66
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:41 pm

Post by cg66 »

Interesting comment on Aleklett’s Energy Mix blog…
aleklett says:
May 11, 2011 at 12:27 pm
A detailed analysis of radioactivity and isotope composition of the Ni sample that was installed in the device and of the sample with the rest products is under way. I think that this will be very interesting.

Reply
Dr D R Jones says:
May 11, 2011 at 6:23 pm
Prof Alekett – would you have any further details of who is conducting this analysis and the possible date of the report being made public?
Regards – D Jones

aleklett says:
May 12, 2011 at 9:10 am
The first part is done and the isotope composition will now start. I don’t know when it will be completed.


http://aleklett.wordpress.com/2011/04/1 ... mment-5832

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

The claims are multiplying.
Up until now such isotopic enrichment has been a very expensive and time-consuming process requiring centrifugal separation techniques – yet he claims that he does this at only a 10% increase in cost over the naturally-occuring isotope mix.

Surely if this were true that such a siscovery of a new isotope-enrichment proces would in itself be a major feat – I wonder why no-one has commented on that.
Until it cures hemorrhoids and produces ten hour erections I'm afraid his invention will be suppressed by TPTB.

=====
cg66 wrote:Interesting comment on Aleklett’s Energy Mix blog…
aleklett says:
May 11, 2011 at 12:27 pm
A detailed analysis of radioactivity and isotope composition of the Ni sample that was installed in the device and of the sample with the rest products is under way. I think that this will be very interesting.

Reply
Dr D R Jones says:
May 11, 2011 at 6:23 pm
Prof Alekett – would you have any further details of who is conducting this analysis and the possible date of the report being made public?
Regards – D Jones

aleklett says:
May 12, 2011 at 9:10 am
The first part is done and the isotope composition will now start. I don’t know when it will be completed.


http://aleklett.wordpress.com/2011/04/1 ... mment-5832
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

raphael
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:16 am
Location: TX

Post by raphael »

Rossi is derided for failing to file a patent app that properly describes his invention.

OTOH, patent offices, in their infinite wisdom, won't accept applications for devices that produce energy via "cold fusion"

Is there a Catch-22 thing going on here?


http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoon ... ron38l.jpg
Last edited by raphael on Fri May 13, 2011 1:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden." Chauncey Gardiner

KitemanSA
Posts: 6179
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

[/quote]
Giorgio wrote: And how many clones of Coke that are just as good there are around?
Only in my local supermarket there are 5.
And I wonder how much they pay the CC company for use of their patents.
Giorgio wrote: Additionally it was a different period. They had lot of time to establish the brand and keep leadership through heavy investments in publicity.
Today you buy Coke because of the name, not becouse of the taste (well, at least here).
I'm not sure the CC Co CARES whether folks by their brand. If they have patented are reasonable ways to make the competetors...
Giorgio wrote: In the case of Rossi device as soon as (if) he ships the first reactor it will be cut open and the powder inside carefully analyzed and replicated.
Unless he keeps tight control of ownership and has means to enforce it. IIRC, the Greek installation will still be owned by Rossi et.al.; not by the Greek company. I'd make the system a tightly sealed box with all sorts of tamper proofing and detection and the like. Assuming it works!

parallel
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:24 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

Tom,
The AGW priors are riddled with errors but you and academia seem to support it just because it is the orthodox viewpoint. Peer reviewers admit they didn’t look at the data and much of the data was kept secret(!) but still you believe it. Do the models look like they are correct in the following graph, or exaggerating the CO2 forcing factor?

Image


There are hundreds of peer reviewed papers on cold fusion that show anomalous heat. Even the US Navy Labs have issued a two volume report. So there is little doubt that the effect is real. All we are haggling about is how much.

So why do you accuse Rossi of fraud when the all the available data indicates he has discovered an improvement? At least withhold judgment until seeing if he produces a 1 MW plant by the end of the year. That is probably the only “cast-iron experimental evidence” that ivory tower science would grudgingly accept after a long delay.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

Unless he keeps tight control of ownership and has means to enforce it.
What he needs is a death ray that will kill all occupants of the vehicle and any one who gets near it if tampering is SUSPECTED or there are any deviations from a filed itinerary.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
Posts: 14335
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Contact:

Post by MSimon »

parallel,

An .8 deg C anomaly is hardly enough to run a power plant. Typically anomalies in the 250 C to 500 C are what engineers look for when designing heat engines.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

Wow, I hope that this doesn't turn into a real discussion comparing AGW skepticism to Rossi faith. Both skepticism and support of AGW are at least based in real physics. That is as far as you need to go to know that this comparison is not even worth discussing.

Giorgio
Posts: 3068
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

KitemanSA wrote:
Giorgio wrote: And how many clones of Coke that are just as good there are around?
Only in my local supermarket there are 5.
And I wonder how much they pay the CC company for use of their patents.
Giorgio wrote: Additionally it was a different period. They had lot of time to establish the brand and keep leadership through heavy investments in publicity.
Today you buy Coke because of the name, not becouse of the taste (well, at least here).
I'm not sure the CC Co CARES whether folks by their brand. If they have patented are reasonable ways to make the competetors...
Giorgio wrote: In the case of Rossi device as soon as (if) he ships the first reactor it will be cut open and the powder inside carefully analyzed and replicated.
Unless he keeps tight control of ownership and has means to enforce it. IIRC, the Greek installation will still be owned by Rossi et.al.; not by the Greek company. I'd make the system a tightly sealed box with all sorts of tamper proofing and detection and the like. Assuming it works!
The point is exactly that.
IF Rossi patents the secret recipe he can have protection. If he just keeps it secret he cannot enforce any claim on other people "secret recipe" and he can kiss protection goodbye.
How much time can it take to a lab with modern equipment to replicate his recipe or make a similar (or even a better) one? Very little I think.
That is, as you said, if it works.

parallel
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:24 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

MSimon wrote:parallel,

An .8 deg C anomaly is hardly enough to run a power plant. Typically anomalies in the 250 C to 500 C are what engineers look for when designing heat engines.
Of course 0.8C is not enough. Not clear why you picked that figure unless you were being funny about the AGW graph. I am an engineer so I understand what is required.

cg66
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:41 pm

Post by cg66 »

The claims are multiplying.

Quote:
Up until now such isotopic enrichment has been a very expensive and time-consuming process requiring centrifugal separation techniques – yet he claims that he does this at only a 10% increase in cost over the naturally-occuring isotope mix.

Surely if this were true that such a siscovery of a new isotope-enrichment proces would in itself be a major feat – I wonder why no-one has commented on that.

Some additional comments from the blog:
Tom Andersen says:
May 11, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Perhaps since they are only interested enriching the heavier isotopes, and not isolating a certain one, the process is 10x or 100x easier.

Reply
John Michell says:
May 11, 2011 at 2:26 pm
You may be right – and since nickel is soluble and the density spread is so high, then the use of an simple preparative ultracentrifuge should enrich this isotope at a competitive cost – although quite slow for production purposes – maybe that is why Rossi needs 6 months to have the 300 units ready for Greece?
Until it cures hemorrhoids and produces ten hour erections I'm afraid his invention will be suppressed by TPTB.
LOL - Yikes I hope not - like constant Viagra commercials aren't enough - you'd think 1/2 the world has erectile dysfunction...I blame global warming. :D

Post Reply