Mach Effect progress

[hanelyp]

I still dont get why it does not show in a pendulum apparatus. If the rails push the armature with magnetic pressure between them, that should induce recoil in the rails.

Because the magnetic pressure is balanced on both ends of a rail segment. The pendulum arrangement used only measures an imbalance that would be absorbed by the rails themselves. The force on the rails themselves is pushing the rails apart, sideways, a force that wasn't measured.

A pipe with plugs at both ends and friction free seals would be a good analogy. Pressure added to the pipe carries a force between the plugs at both ends without creating a net force on the pipe itself.

[ladajo]

I can see sense in that. The idea being that the magnetic filed lines of force are independant of the actual metal of the rails.
But that makes me wonder how I can push a magnate around the table with another without touching it.
I need to step back and think on this some more...

[TallDave]

Heh. This reminds me of my travails in trying to explain to someone why a refrigerator magnet does no work in holding itself to the door, even though gravity is pulling on it.

I finally got to it in the context of energy states, but it was a long road.

[TallDave]

Also, I see no reason to presume that space cannot expand at the speed of light. Quite the opposite, actually: If the universe is 4.3E17s in age (thus, [4.3E17].[c]m in size, then in each second so a length of 1m expands to (1+1/[4.3E17])m.

Even in three dimensions, it can actually expand quite a bit faster, and does, depending on where you measure from and when. Very distant objects are receding from one another at large multiples of c. And of course during the inflationary period 3d space expanded much much faster, such that quantum fluctuations became macroscopic distortions in the distribution of matter.

But why stop at 5? String/M theories do better with 11. You can roll up some of the dimensions and explain properties of matter as well.

There is no need for the notion of Higgs field, nor its mediating particle, in my model. That doesn't exclude it, but it is unnecessary to describe matter. I would say that it doesn't exist.

Yeah, but that view tends to be incompatible with QM, which is why it's so hard to describe black holes. Sooner or later we're going to figure out a quantum theory of gravity and poke a hole in relativity, just as relativity did to Newtonian physics.

[GIThruster]

I still dont get why it does not show in a pendulum apparatus. If the rails push the armature with magnetic pressure between them, that should induce recoil in the rails.

Because the magnetic pressure is balanced on both ends of a rail segment. The pendulum arrangement used only measures an imbalance that would be absorbed by the rails themselves. The force on the rails themselves is pushing the rails apart, sideways, a force that wasn't measured.

A pipe with plugs at both ends and friction free seals would be a good analogy. Pressure added to the pipe carries a force between the plugs at both ends without creating a net force on the pipe itself.

Sorry but that's not true once the slug leaves the pipe. There has to be a net force somewhere equal and opposite to the slug. They just didn't measure it. On the rails, on the breech, somewhere they didn't measure.

Refrigerator magnets do no work because they don't move. No motion equals no work done--magnets generate force, not energy. This distinction is the one advocates of magnetic motors don't understand. The only energy you can get out of a magnetic motor is what you put in during assembly, while moving it's parts together.

Here's a great example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGiWiXMHn0

If you attach a generator to the assembly, you can reclaim most of the energy put in when squeezing the assembly together against the force of the magnets--and no more.

[TallDave]

That's one way to look at it. I went the route of lowest energy states: if gravity is stronger than the magnet, the lowest energy state of the magnet is on the floor, and the magnet falls. If the magnet is stronger, the lowest energy state is at the fridge door. It doesn't require work to stay at the lowest energy state. It's all ball bearings settling at the bottom of a bowl.

I've read somewhere that you can, with some difficulty, actually build a magnet powered motor, but they don't run very long (they demagnetize pretty quickly), certainly not long enough to be any kind of power source/store. It was alleged this doesn't violate physics because you are increasing the entropy within the magnet by de-aligning the molecules.

[GIThruster]

There are dozens of permanent magnet motor designs. Some have formed the basis for noteworthy scams. I think last year's buzz was surrounding a company in Australia that was selling licenses for their product until the Aussies nabbed them and put them in jail. Year before that was a group in England.

The idea is a very old one that's been revived the last 15 years because of the supposed notion of ZPF theory explaining the "mystery" behind magnets. They're not a mystery. Field theory is a mystery to some, but magnets are nothing magical.

In all perm mag motor designs, you can indeed get motion, but the motor will run down and stop as soon as you attach any damping, like a generator; to draw energy out of the system. The only energy in the system is what it took to squeeze together the magnets in whatever configuration you're using. They're all essentially wind-up motors, like spring wound clocks and watches years gone by.

I don't think the magnets need demagnetize for the motor to stop but that probably depends upon design. My guess is, most designs (and there are hundreds) would not demagnetize any more than any pair of magnets, forced together over extended period of time, would necessarily demagnetize.

[TallDave]

Yes, Sonship was quite notorious for that here in the U..S. Apparently their machines could work under load for a short time, long enough for demonstrations (which is a little different than the free-spinning motor you describe, and would require demagnetization to avoid violating entropy; basically, they use the magnet as a sort of crappy battery).


They also sold my all-time favorite product, the Magnetic Laundry Ball. Don't know if they still exist, but this is still around:

http://www.tellme1st.net/energy-resourc ... mpare.html

[MSimon]

Heh. This reminds me of my travails in trying to explain to someone why a refrigerator magnet does no work in holding itself to the door, even though gravity is pulling on it.

I finally got to it in the context of energy states, but it was a long road.

Actually the work is all done when the magnet hits the metal.

[AcesHigh]

jimgagnon posted this today at NASA Spaceflight Forums

Interesting article on how German researchers have shown how it is possible to create situations in the quantum world in which the effects of inertial and gravitational mass must be different. In fact, they show that these differences can be arbitrarily large.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25331/

[GIThruster]

This is the third time in a day I've had someone point me to this work. It's very exciting but I would caution that arxiv is not peer reviewed. I think it will be quite some time before we see a real critique of this, so it's good to know what's afoot, but also good to be patient.

[tomclarke]

In the macroscopic domain it is trivial to make an experiment in which the effects of inertial & gravitational mass are different. As I see it this is potentially a way to measure accurately the two quantities in a microscopic system and therefore compare them.

The headline is somewhat different, it sounds as though this system breaks the principle of equivalence, but it does not, unless the masses so mesured turn out to be different!

[kunkmiester]

Code: Select all

Sorry but that's not true once the slug leaves the pipe. There has to be a net force somewhere equal and opposite to the slug. They just didn't measure it. On the rails, on the breech, somewhere they didn't measure.

The force is on the other slug. This principle is used in some recoilless rifles--most known is the Carl Gustav. The propellant is set between a projectile and a counterweight. When fired, the counterweight goes backwards, and the projectile forwards. There's no net force on the firing tube, hence no recoil, and a shoulder fired weapon of decent proportions for anti-tank work.

[GIThruster]

From another thread:

"The stored charge in a Van deGraff generator is stored capacitively."

Yes, but in a Van deGraff the charge is stored on the surface of the metal, not in a molecular bond. Also, Van deGraffs are a poor choice for an M-E experiment because they do not charge and discharge quickly. For a good M-E experiment, you need both high energy density, so you can move the active mass easily by keeping that mass small and rigid; and you need high power density. M-E scales with the cube of frequency.

Anyone here has the time and EE skills to do an experiment, please do write me. I'll be happy to connect you.

[MSimon]

jimgagnon posted this today at NASA Spaceflight Forums

Interesting article on how German researchers have shown how it is possible to create situations in the quantum world in which the effects of inertial and gravitational mass must be different. In fact, they show that these differences can be arbitrarily large.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25331/

I'd have to look it up but I believe Feynman came to a similar conclusion over 40 years ago. But all he came up with was an upper bound.