10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[MSimon]

For me, the fact that he also claims that his device cures cancer is a good enough reason not to have any interest. But that is just me.

Now if it fixed broken hearts as well....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVyBRdBVCiU

[Joseph Chikva]

Not only chemical but chemical + electric heating.

What does it mean?

I saw electric heaters in one drawing.

[seedload]

For me, the fact that he also claims that his device cures cancer is a good enough reason not to have any interest. But that is just me.

Source?

Just because you don't read/consider my posts doesn't mean that I am not trying to provide facts about these guys questionable claims.

viewtopic.php?p=61771&highlight=piantelli#61771

[Joseph Chikva]

For me, the fact that he also claims that his device cures cancer is a good enough reason not to have any interest. But that is just me.

Now if it fixed broken hearts as well....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVyBRdBVCiU

That would cure even my non American heart

[Giorgio]

Not only chemical but chemical + electric heating.

What does it mean?

I saw electric heaters in one drawing.

Ok, they account only for 400W of heat. Given heaters length and 220V power supply you can't squeeze much more out of them.

Even removing the heaters contribution there still is no known chemical reaction in that volume that can account for their claims.

We should really drop once for all the hypothesis of the chemical reaction (as we should drop the one of the willing scam) and stick to the two alternatives that are left.

1) Bad interpretation of results.
2) It works.

[D Tibbets]

I've wondered why there isn't more interest in Piantelli's work in this thread. Didn't he publish sufficient instructions to allow for independent replication of a claim of achieving reliable, if very modest, production of heat? Or do I have the wrong impression?

EDIT: http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2 ... g.shtml#pf

For me, the fact that he also claims that his device cures cancer is a good enough reason not to have any interest. But that is just me.

The link, doesn't describe much. It does report that two separate labs (CERN and Pavia (sp?) failed failed to reproduce the results. They also report that in later papers (~1999) there was claimed neutron detection directly and by gold activation. With reported power outputs of ~ 20-40 Watts. In the Rossi device, if operating with the same physics, the output was ~ 200-1000 times as great. Any ambiguity of radiation output would be overwhelmed (very much greater signal to noise ratios).

In terms of power output. Even if you assume their calorimetry was lousy with the claim of complete converion to steam is grossly wrong, the measurements might have overestimated the heat output by a factor of ~ 2-3X. The heat output over the claimed time frames would still exceed the chemical capacities. Unless there is fraud or gross inadequacy in the measurement processes something interesting must be happening.

I still vote for fraud. Even with my limited perusal, there are just too many deviations from reasonable instermentation and experimental setup flaws, that could only be explained by ineptitude or intent to decieve.

Dan Tibbets

[seedload]

But I am asking YOU for facts. I already know HE is not going to provide them. I am asking YOU to provide FACTUAL arguments about this one way or the other. Or are you, like him, just f@rting into the wind?

I've gotten ~3 people to actually provide fact based reasoning (faulty, but fact based) on why this can't work. I believe I have been successful in dismissing all said arguments. Are there any others?

Look, I have provided facts, in respect to those that are attainable. You have said that you consider them irrelevant and me ignorant. The only facts that I can look at are those that are evident, and in looking at those, I find Rossi's claims highly unlikely.

From an earlier post that you ignored.

These are the things that I have chosen to learn about Rossi's claims:
1) He claims multiple miracles - exponentially more unlikely.
2) His businesses appear to be non-functional and fake in many respects.
3) He has a history of overblown claims.
4) The natural isotopic ratio of the copper ash makes no sense.
5) He is starting to make typical paranoid claims. Spies, threats, blackmail, etc.

Do you find the simultaneous discovery of reproducible high energy LENR and revolutionary cheap isotopic enrichment likely?

Do you find the fact that Leonardo Corporation, a 14 year old company, does not seem to exist in any real sense odd? (ie, web site phone number bogus, web site address bogus, web site advertised product non-existent, web search presence invisible, no apparent factory).

Do you find Rossi's history of overblown claims concerning?

Do you find the apparent natural copper isotopic ratios of the resultant ash unexplainable? If not, please explain.

Do you find his recent rantings regarding spies/etc. at all damning to his claims?

Finally, does the combination of the above questionable claims concern you in any way.

[Joseph Chikva]

What does it mean?

I saw electric heaters in one drawing.

Ok, they account only for 400W of heat. Given heaters length and 220V power supply you can't squeeze much more out of them.

Even removing the heaters contribution there still is no known chemical reaction in that volume that can account for their claims.

We should really drop once for all the hypothesis of the chemical reaction (as we should drop the one of the willing scam) and stick to the two alternatives that are left.

1) Bad interpretation of results.
2) It works.

Ok Georgio.
How you wish. It less interesting for me. As I think that it can not work. Bad interpretation of results? Probably yes and on base of those bad results ambitious claims confirmed with nothing.
Best wishes.

[D Tibbets]

What does it mean?

I saw electric heaters in one drawing.

Ok, they account only for 400W of heat. Given heaters length and 220V power supply you can't squeeze much more out of them.

Even removing the heaters contribution there still is no known chemical reaction in that volume that can account for their claims.

We should really drop once for all the hypothesis of the chemical reaction (as we should drop the one of the willing scam) and stick to the two alternatives that are left.

1) Bad interpretation of results.
2) It works.

Why abandom the possibility of a scam?
There are a lot of effects that should be obvious if you have a 10-20,000 Watt steam heater in a room for months- like sauna effect, air conditioning bills, etc. Then there is the radiation shielding issues that are not really addressed, except that ~ 1/2 inch of lead is adiquate, etc.

[seedload]

I saw electric heaters in one drawing.

Ok, they account only for 400W of heat. Given heaters length and 220V power supply you can't squeeze much more out of them.

Even removing the heaters contribution there still is no known chemical reaction in that volume that can account for their claims.

We should really drop once for all the hypothesis of the chemical reaction (as we should drop the one of the willing scam) and stick to the two alternatives that are left.

1) Bad interpretation of results.
2) It works.

Why abandom the possibility of a scam?
There are a lot of effects that should be obvious if you have a 10-20,000 Watt steam heater in a room for months- like sauna effect, air conditioning bills, etc. Then there is the radiation shielding issues that are not really addressed, except that ~ 1/2 inch of lead is adiquate, etc.

Personally, I dismissed the potential of a mistake the day that he claimed the second miracle of cheap isotopic enrichment. This is either a lie or not a lie - not a mistake - with not a lie being exceptionally unlikely. Just my take.

[Joseph Chikva]

I saw electric heaters in one drawing.

Ok, they account only for 400W of heat. Given heaters length and 220V power supply you can't squeeze much more out of them.

Even removing the heaters contribution there still is no known chemical reaction in that volume that can account for their claims.

We should really drop once for all the hypothesis of the chemical reaction (as we should drop the one of the willing scam) and stick to the two alternatives that are left.

1) Bad interpretation of results.
2) It works.

Why abandom the possibility of a scam?
There are a lot of effects that should be obvious if you have a 10-20,000 Watt steam heater in a room for months- like sauna effect, air conditioning bills, etc. Then there is the radiation shielding issues that are not really addressed, except that ~ 1/2 inch of lead is adiquate, etc.

With very high probability scam.
It is very easy to say "electric input 400W" inputting 20-fold 400W.
As I remember Krivit in his description has said nothing about ampere-meter. Big room 7500 sq.f., coffee machine, 3meters black hose, white color steam 100C,etc. And nothing on current.

[tomclarke]

"Aughta ain't is" and "should ain't gonna". Seems Rossi feels he "SHOULD" do what he is doing and fooey on those who say he SHOULD do something else.

If you have any FACTS why this thing should or shouldn't work, please present them. Other than that, it's just your lips flappin.

I've done a little looking and can't find a reason why something like this CAN'T work. Do you have one? I have no idea whether ROSSI's works or not, but it wouldn't upset my world view if one of these H:Ni systems is finally proven to produce nuclear reactions. Do you have FACTS to add to the discussion? Relavent facts?

Anyone?

FACT - proposed system does not fit into current physics without something very extraordinary (like 700keV electrons in a lattice). Even then the ash residues do not match what would be expected.

FACT - 20 years of experimenting with Ni-H and other metal-hydrogen systems has led to no publishable & repeatable experimental evidence of non-chemical heat generation

FACT - Rossi's statements on his blog about what he is doing are self-contradictory

FACT - Rossi has previously promised cheap energy from new technology, this did not work.

FACT - Rossi has been in trouble with the law

FACT - Rossi's public demos do not show nuclear-level heat output, because it is not clear what their heat output is.

FACT - Rossi's only (non-public) demo with easy to measure heat output ran with output temperature below ambient therefore making measurement error of output very possible.

FACT - Rossi treats polite and favourably disposed journalists as snakes in the grass when they ask technical questions.

The first two facts mean that you need very good evidence before it is rational to expect any such a system to work. The remaining facts show why the Rossi evidence is not very good.

Fact that he can not measure heat. "700 keV electron in lattice"?

Its what you need for W-L theory

Rossi does not think this is what he has, but it is the only game in town. Unfortunately it is a game requiring very implausible 700kev electrons spontaneously generated in a lattice.

[tomclarke]

FACTS? Anyone? FACTS?

The most likely reason for him not providing facts is that there are none.

Actually, the MOST likely is that he has none he wishes to share. But having none at all is also a minor possibility.
But I am asking YOU for facts. I already know HE is not going to provide them. I am asking YOU to provide FACTUAL arguments about this one way or the other. Or are you, like him, just f@rting into the wind?

I've gotten ~3 people to actually provide fact based reasoning (faulty, but fact based) on why this can't work. I believe I have been successful in dismissing all said arguments. Are there any others?

Did you dismiss my arguments? I gave them a while back in response to the challenge.

FACT - proposed system does not fit into current physics without something very extraordinary (like 700keV electrons in a lattice). Even then the ash residues do not match what would be expected.

FACT - 20 years of experimenting with Ni-H and other metal-hydrogen systems has led to no publishable & repeatable experimental evidence of non-chemical heat generation

FACT - Rossi's statements on his blog about what he is doing are self-contradictory

FACT - Rossi has previously promised cheap energy from new technology, this did not work.

FACT - Rossi has been in trouble with the law

FACT - Rossi's public demos do not show nuclear-level heat output, because it is not clear what their heat output is.

FACT - Rossi's only (non-public) demo with easy to measure heat output ran with output temperature below ambient therefore making measurement error of output very possible.

FACT - Rossi treats polite and favourably disposed journalists as snakes in the grass when they ask technical questions.

The first two facts mean that you need very good evidence before it is rational to expect any such a system to work. The remaining facts show why the Rossi evidence is not very good.
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[tomclarke]

Ok, they account only for 400W of heat. Given heaters length and 220V power supply you can't squeeze much more out of them.

Even removing the heaters contribution there still is no known chemical reaction in that volume that can account for their claims.

We should really drop once for all the hypothesis of the chemical reaction (as we should drop the one of the willing scam) and stick to the two alternatives that are left.

1) Bad interpretation of results.
2) It works.

Why abandom the possibility of a scam?
There are a lot of effects that should be obvious if you have a 10-20,000 Watt steam heater in a room for months- like sauna effect, air conditioning bills, etc. Then there is the radiation shielding issues that are not really addressed, except that ~ 1/2 inch of lead is adiquate, etc.

Personally, I dismissed the potential of a mistake the day that he claimed the second miracle of cheap isotopic enrichment. This is either a lie or not a lie - not a mistake - with not a lie being exceptionally unlikely. Just my take.

The cheap isotopic enrichment was a give away.

But maybe it just means he does not understand what is an isotope

[Axil]

Why abandom the possibility of a scam?
There are a lot of effects that should be obvious if you have a 10-20,000 Watt steam heater in a room for months- like sauna effect, air conditioning bills, etc. Then there is the radiation shielding issues that are not really addressed, except that ~ 1/2 inch of lead is adiquate, etc.

Personally, I dismissed the potential of a mistake the day that he claimed the second miracle of cheap isotopic enrichment. This is either a lie or not a lie - not a mistake - with not a lie being exceptionally unlikely. Just my take.

The cheap isotopic enrichment was a give away.

But maybe it just means he does not understand what is an isotope

I posted how the enrichment is done. That post was not believable?