Rowan University Publishes Further Confirmations of BLP

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

tomclarke wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote:
TallDave wrote: An extraordinary claim is one that appears to contradict a lot of existing evidence, hence it requires extraordinary proof.
It doesn't require extraordinary proof.

It requires exactly the the same quality of properly reviewed, independently replicated evidence as any other claim.
OK. This is absolutely (and mathematically provably) not true. It is a simple matter of Bayes theorem. An extraordinary claim has a much lower prior probability than one which is compatible with existing theory. So for it to be preferred stronger evidence is required. the framework here is inductive, not deductive, and all evidence is probabilistic.
Argument from authority...

This stuff is a gift for politicians needing to set research budgets. Just don't confuse it with science.
Ars artis est celare artem.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

TallDave wrote:
There aren't two different standards of evidence in Science.
No, but there are competing theories. If two theories contradict each other and one has massive evidence and the other has scant evidence, which is more likely to be correct? It is simply a fact larger samples are generally more likely to be representative.
Go with the properly reviewed, independently replicated data. In science all theories are waiting to be falsified.

The larger sample suffers from selection bias.
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TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

alexjrgreen wrote:
TallDave wrote:
There aren't two different standards of evidence in Science.
No, but there are competing theories. If two theories contradict each other and one has massive evidence and the other has scant evidence, which is more likely to be correct? It is simply a fact larger samples are generally more likely to be representative.
Go with the properly reviewed, independently replicated data. In science all theories are waiting to be falsified.
They both have properly reviewed, independently replicated data. One set is much much larger than the other.
The larger sample suffers from selection bias.
It's possible, but obviously less likely. For instance, let's say you're in your lab one day measuring gravity dropping pieces of iron, and you measure the acceleration at 20m/s/s rather than the "status quo" of 10m/s/s. You lab assistant independently verifies this. You have an impartial review. You triumphantly declare to the world that the massive number of previous measurements calculating the force of gravity were all in error according to your properly reviewed, independently replicated data, and are very disappointed when it turns out someone had installed a giant magnet on the floor below yours.

Sample size matters.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

alexjrgreen wrote:
tomclarke wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote: It doesn't require extraordinary proof.

It requires exactly the the same quality of properly reviewed, independently replicated evidence as any other claim.
OK. This is absolutely (and mathematically provably) not true. It is a simple matter of Bayes theorem. An extraordinary claim has a much lower prior probability than one which is compatible with existing theory. So for it to be preferred stronger evidence is required. the framework here is inductive, not deductive, and all evidence is probabilistic.
Argument from authority...

This stuff is a gift for politicians needing to set research budgets. Just don't confuse it with science.
Alex -

You obviously have a political poiint to make here. I do not. But I will stick with my defence of the scientific method and induction as a proper and (in principle, though often not in practice) mathematically provable activity.

The Popper et al arguments for contextualism in science are interesting & probably often relevant to the practice of science. But they are not (as Popper claims) an inherent limit on the nature of scientific 'truth'. Popper does not consider induction as a sound analytic method of reasoning. To be fair, the framework which allows this was not well developed when he was writing.

Induction - based on Bayes theorem and the calculation of posterior probabilities from prior probabilities is real. It is what scientists do all the time when going for a theory becaause it is beatifully simple and has wide predictive power.

There is no reductionism here. It is not always easy to determine prior probabilities. The space of possible theories of up to a given complexity is finite but so large that we can only consider a small number of possible theories, even with a complexity limit. So prejudice & bias is always possible. Still, the machinery exists to judge that one theory is more likely than another, given a set of evidence. And that, whether in science (do we give money to Hydrino research?) or life (what is the likely impact on my health if I stop eating red meat now?), is worth having. Of course the money question is also political.

I think that dismissal of induction - and by extension the way that good working scientists select between theories - as a political device with no scientific reality would if maintained consistently lead to a post-modern maze where nothing can be relied upon because nothing is certain.

The irony here is that nothing can be relied upon because nothing is (deductively) certain. But many things are so likely that we can treat them as certain (that the earth will continue rotating, etc). And there is a real difference in our behaviour if we believe something to be 80% likely to be true or 1% likely to be true.

Perhaps your point (political) is that too much money is given to mainstream research and too little to alternative less likely approaches. That is reasonable, and of course anyone interested in Polywell would be likely to think that. Though, to be fair, Polywell has decent money behind it, enough to reduce uncertainty and lead either to bigger money or pack up shop.

My point is that however you want to allocate money, judging the credibility of alternative theories is necessary as a basis for other decisions, and it is based on the simplicity and explanatory power of the theory, as well as its compatibility with other 'good' theories.

Otherwise, my theory that fusion happens at the whim of God and the way to build successful fusion reactors is to conduct the right set of prayers, whilst combining reaction ingredients, should get decent funding. After all, if I am right ITER success could be ensured at massively lower cost than nor proposed. Also Polywell should be working on the correct set of "IEC prayers".

Best wishes, Tom

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

DavidWillard wrote: Maybe the industry needs an Amazing Randi type of challenge. A pot of prize money to be had for extraordinary claims being verified.

If the reactor works and puts out net energy, build a hovering/flying pltform and land it on the White House lawn. With permission of course so you don't get shot down in restricted airspace.
Consider: Polywell does get funding, as does BLP. The tragedy perhaps is that Polywell (more likley to work) gets less funding than BLP (less likely to work)!

Tom

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

tomclarke wrote:Induction - based on Bayes theorem and the calculation of posterior probabilities from prior probabilities is real. It is what scientists do all the time when going for a theory becaause it is beatifully simple and has wide predictive power.

...

I think that dismissal of induction - and by extension the way that good working scientists select between theories - as a political device with no scientific reality would if maintained consistently lead to a post-modern maze where nothing can be relied upon because nothing is certain.
Bayes theorem is a way of maximizing outcomes, a way of managing losses. Truly a politician's delight and a gambler's paradise.

It's great virtue is that it produces a rational answer from entirely subjective assessments. And that's the point - it simply tells you whether your post-modern story is a plausible match for the data.

It is not objective. It does not shine a light into the unknown unknown. And that's why it's not science.
Ars artis est celare artem.

Jccarlton
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Post by Jccarlton »

A quick look at Rowan University's website indicates they do not have a dedicated physics department and are not a mainstream research university. While good work has been done in such places and good people may work there, it's the kind of place where I would expect something extraordinary to come out of to be confirmed, not the kind of place that one would go to for replication of an experiment.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

Jccarlton wrote:A quick look at Rowan University's website indicates they do not have a dedicated physics department and are not a mainstream research university. While good work has been done in such places and good people may work there, it's the kind of place where I would expect something extraordinary to come out of to be confirmed, not the kind of place that one would go to for replication of an experiment.
They've given a very clear description of how they replicated the results, so it shouldn't be too hard for anyone else to check.

The fractional states they're seeing are reminiscent of electron delocalisation in Benzene bonds. They might even produce superconductivity...
Ars artis est celare artem.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

alexjrgreen wrote:
tomclarke wrote:Induction - based on Bayes theorem and the calculation of posterior probabilities from prior probabilities is real. It is what scientists do all the time when going for a theory becaause it is beatifully simple and has wide predictive power.

...

I think that dismissal of induction - and by extension the way that good working scientists select between theories - as a political device with no scientific reality would if maintained consistently lead to a post-modern maze where nothing can be relied upon because nothing is certain.
Bayes theorem is a way of maximizing outcomes, a way of managing losses. Truly a politician's delight and a gambler's paradise.

It's great virtue is that it produces a rational answer from entirely subjective assessments. And that's the point - it simply tells you whether your post-modern story is a plausible match for the data.

It is not objective. It does not shine a light into the unknown unknown. And that's why it's not science.
Alex - Bayesian probability theory is maths, and is no more science than is calculus. But science uses both, and without either would be poorer.

The difficulty is only when a full Bayesian analysis (determining prior probabilities from symmetries) cannot be done. In this case the priors are unclear. There is uncertainty (subjectivity if you like) in how those are assigned. However Bayesian analysis still tells you precisely how the uncertainty in the priors feeds through to uncertainty in the results.

There are also a number of people who use Bayes theorem without any attempt to establish objective priors and call themselves Bayesians, this is an abuse of the term.

So, Bayesian probability theory, like all maths, is a framework that establishes identities. It does systematise the notion of probability as (rational) belief. It relates (rationally) prior to posterior beliefs. Also, and this is less understood, it allows 'no information' beliefs (priors) to be calculated from system symmetries and therefore also objective model comparison.

This is only subjective if you do not bother to do the maths to work out priors, or if the complexity of the system makes this difficult. In which case you know precisely what in your results is uncertain.

It is true that Bayesian techniques often don't help directly comparing different theories in Physics because the space of hypotheses is so complex and it is difficult to determine all the relevant symmetries. In that case it is still a way of objectively determining how much given evidence provides more certain results when priors are uncertain.

Best wishes, Tom

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

tomclarke wrote:The difficulty is only when a full Bayesian analysis (determining prior probabilities from symmetries) cannot be done. In this case the priors are unclear. There is uncertainty (subjectivity if you like) in how those are assigned. However Bayesian analysis still tells you precisely how the uncertainty in the priors feeds through to uncertainty in the results.
All this does is to unmask the gaps in your theory on the basis of your existing knowledge.

It doesn't generate new knowledge.
Ars artis est celare artem.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

You mix farino with hydrino and heat to 100 C for about 10 minutes and you get cerino. Which is good for breakfast if mixed with sugarino.

This has been independently observed by Martha Stewart under roughly similar conditions. A lot of money will be required to develop this. Send it at once.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Kahuna wrote:Yes, BLP apparently has six contracts to provide generators to various utilities.

See:

http://www.blacklightpower.com/Press%20 ... 073009.htm

I assume they will have to perform on those in the not too far distant future or suffer a big credibility hit. It seems like the BLP story has got to take a turn in some direction before too long.
And EEStor has a contract with Lockheed.

Contracts are not proof of anything. I'd like to see the penalty clauses for non-delivery.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

nferguso
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Post by nferguso »

Extraordinary clams require extra horseradish sauce.

Nik
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With apologies...

Post by Nik »

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Sadly, too often, they do. They must cut through a heap of pre-existing opinions and interpretations, literally change the paradigm...

Um, couple of examples across several fields...

Continental Drift / Plate Tectonics. Idea was around for a long, long time, but it wasn't until magnetic mapping found those sea-bed 'bar-codes' mirrored across the mid-Atlantic rift that a plausible process was available. I remember both the 'gosh, wow !' and the almost pathological opposition.

BigBang cosmology. The term 'BB' was invented by the leading 'Steady State' proponent as a dire insult, and stuck. He wasn't to know 'Cosmic Background Radiation' would come out of 'left field' to complement the RedShift data. Um, the SteadyStaters are now few, but still battling...

Ozone Hole due CFCs etc. Remember when only the British Antarctic Survey believed in the Ozone Hole ? They were measuring a cyclical decline with their neo-Victorian kit, while NASA's satellites said everything was okay. Wasn't until a famous US electronics enthusiast published a design for a $50 instrument to measure UV that some-one took another look at the *raw* NASA data and found the system was discarding 'hole' data as anomalous...

Global Warming due CO2 etc emissions. Um, that's too hot a potato, with every possible facet politicised to h**ll and back. Meanwhile, most glaciers and ice-caps are merrily shrinking & shedding...

Impact-related extinctions. Chicxulub. Okay, still unclear if the Big C got the dinosaurs on its own, kick-started those near-antipodal Indian Deccan Traps flood-basalts or was the final straw, but the massive impact epicentre took a long, long time to locate and confirm. IIRC, there's now a hunt in progress for a comparable impact in mid-Pacific. Snag there is much evidence may have been subducted...

Mega-thrust quakes, and their 15 metre coastal rise/falls. Took a lot of field work to find cyclically drowned land, raised beaches and tsunami evidence along vulnerable coasts' 'crumpled carpet'. The Alaskan and Chilean mega-quakes helped convince skeptics...

Solar neutrinos and neutrino non-zero mass. Um, IIRC, a couple of experimenters spent their entire career tweaking detection of solar neutrinos in a vast drum of dry-cleaning fluid. The sheer quality of their work eventually prompted others to try. Outcome is that solar neutrinos do 'rotate' through three varieties, hence the missing 2/3. Oh, and they must have a whiff of rest-mass to do it...

Um, I'd hold off believing fractionally charged electrons for now. 'Solvation' and 'decentralisation' can play funny tricks with electron density and apparent charge. Always worries me that such 'lone inventors' are not content with reporting an anomaly, but must try to change everything else, too...

FWIW, as a student, I turned in superb data showing the half-life of an ordinary isotope I'd isolated was precisely half the book value. We never did find what was wrong with my meticulously acquired data, but I took the Prof's jokey warning to stay away from sub-critical assemblies very seriously...

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