Thoughts on Thorium Molten Salt Reactors?

[paperburn1]

s. In Chernobyl the design was even worse. I think some fission continued (continues?) after meltdown, despite heroic efforts to dampen it by the USSR

Dan Tibbets

I believe I just read a news article about the Chernobyl plant undergoing emergency repairs due to some sort of failure in the containment cap.

[D Tibbets]

The fact you think rendering thousands of square miles as poisoned and useless is a "non-event", clearly shows your head is up your ass.

The fact that you think C&F has left thousands of square miles poisoned and useless just demonstrates what a useful idiot you truly are. For the "uselessness" of the land, blame not C&F, but useful idiots such as yourself. There MAY be a few square miles that I wouldn't clamber to live in, but that is just great for the wildlife.

It is more than a few square miles. The losses to local residents and farmers and towns was tremendous.

Then, the consequences for men and animals/ nature are not necessarily parallel.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff_chernobyl/

Dan Tibbets

[KitemanSA]

It is more than a few square miles. The losses to local residents and farmers and towns was tremendous.

Dan, the fact that useful idiots have abused the power of government to cordon off vast tracts of land and SAY the land is useless, doesn't make it so. As I told the GIT, it wasn't C&F that made the land useless, it was the useful idiots.

[GIThruster]

Real Estate in Japan is amongst the highest in the world since there is so little of it. Are you really making the claim that the Japanese of all people, don't know when radioactive pollution renders real estate poisoned, dangerous and useless? And you have what facts that they are wrong in this?

You know, just because some deer are living on the polluted land doesn't mean the land is safe. They moved the people out, and made the water table off limits for good reasons and with none of the details you're willing to proclaim everyone involved a "useful idiot".

I think it's pretty obvious who the idiot is.

[ladajo]

Maybe you should quote the actual levels they are finding and the zones it is found in instead of making blanket hand-waving statements like:

Are you really making the claim that the Japanese of all people, don't know when radioactive pollution renders real estate poisoned, dangerous and useless?

The media has great playin all this with headlines like "Radiation Found in Ground Water from Fukishima"

Well you know what else, there are detectable airborne components that were found here in the states as well. Are you dead or dying from it? That is the part the media leaves out.

Radiation limits are set with a healthy margin to actual hazard levels.
100R Whole body is the line drawn where "detectable" effects occur, and you can tell that someone got zapped. I simply the discussion on purpose as it does not matter to dive into the specifics of dose types and sources.

Here are the Federal limits: http://www.safety.vanderbilt.edu/rad/ra ... imetry.php

The general public is limited to 2% of these numbers, as "non-occupational". So that would be 100 mrem/year whole body. Average natural background is 300mrem/year whole body.

The more land area "declared unusable" by the system is furthered by special interest lobbying and media stupidity, which in turn snowballs the effect of the special interest retards and their own perceived relevance. The retards primarily seek to completely eliminate the use of nuclear energy. So what do you think they want advertised in regard to Fukishima, etc.?

It is like saying that 3-Mile Island was a huge disaster. Many believe that, but reality dictates otherwise if you care to find out.

So pull some of the numbers used from Fukishima and tell me where the actual hazards are vice "Fukishima radiation detected in ground water in Tokyo and fish at sea." They can't even get the terminology right when they report stuff...and that only compounds the issue...

[GIThruster]

There's more data on Fukushima than most people will want to look over. Honestly, the details of Chernobyl have been out there for so long that anyone who could call that incident a "non-event" simply cannot be argued with. You have the be seriously out of touch to force yourself to believe such a pathetic lie.

But to your query for more detail, Wiki has a very good page on Fukushima, including:

In March 2011, Japanese officials announced that "radioactive iodine-131 exceeding safety limits for infants had been detected at 18 water-purification plants in Tokyo and five other prefectures".

As of July 2011, the Japanese government has been unable to control the spread of radioactive material into the nation's food. Radioactive material has been detected in a range of produce, including spinach, tea leaves, milk, fish and beef, up to 200 miles from the nuclear plant. Inside the 12-mile evacuation zone around the plant, all farming has been abandoned.

As of August 2011, the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant is still leaking low levels of radiation and areas surrounding it could remain uninhabitable for decades due to high radiation. It could take "more than 20 years before residents could safely return to areas with current radiation readings of 200 millisieverts per year, and a decade for areas at 100 millisieverts per year".

On 24 August 2011, the Nuclear Safety Commission (NSC) of Japan published the results of the recalculation of the total amount of radioactive materials released into the air during the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station. The total amounts released between 11 March and 5 April were revised downwards to 1.3 × 1017 Bq for iodine-131 and 1.1 × 1016 Bq for caesium-137, which is about 11% of Chernobyl emissions. Earlier estimations were 1.5 × 1017 Bq and 1.2 × 1016 Bq.

On 8 September 2011 a group of Japanese scientists working for the Japan Atomic Energy Agency, the Kyoto University and other institutes, published the results of a recalculation of the total amount of radioactive material released into the ocean: between late March through April they found a total of 15,000 TBq for the combined amount of iodine-131 and caesium-137. This was more than triple the figure of 4,720 TBq estimated by the plant-owner. TEPCO made only a calculation about the releases from the plant in April and May into the sea. The new calculations were needed because a large portion of the airborne radioactive substances would enter the seawater when it came down as rain.

So just saying, to argue with these numbers and especially to argue with the numbers for Chernobyl, one has to sacrifice any pretense toward integrity. These are horrible disasters. I'm very pro-nuke and I'm not suggesting we build fewer of them. I think we need a next generation of better, safer and cheaper nukes. But just saying, lying about the risks just discredits the person lying. Kite has no credibility now. He's obviously willing to pretend these horrible disasters aren't disasters so his opinions aren't worth anything.

I highly recommend the Wiki article. The most disturbing thing to me about Fukushima is the way the officials reacted. They could have prevented the vast majority of the destruction but chose not to because they thought the salt water would damage the reactors. Basically, greed moved them to place Japan and the world at higher risk and they lost that bet in spades. It is when the human element fails that we ought to be most alarmed, for surely this calls for new emergency protocols so we don't see this in the future.

[ladajo]

I think you are missing my point.

As of August 2011, the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant is still leaking low levels of radiation and areas surrounding it could remain uninhabitable for decades due to high radiation. It could take "more than 20 years before residents could safely return to areas with current radiation readings of 200 millisieverts per year, and a decade for areas at 100 millisieverts per year".

And how damaging REALLY is 200mSv/Year? 100mSv/Year?
The Agenda Laden Activists would have the planet believe it is an instantaneous death to be subjected to such lethal levels. The rational thinker would say to himself, well 1 Sv = 100 Rem. And 100Rem is the threshold for "Detectable Exposure"...so 1/5th or 1/10th of detectable exposure may not be so bad as it sounds...it is not like if I was exposed to 200mSv/year anyone would ever actually know, as it is not detectable if someone monitors my body for signs of exposure...

Look at the other wiki quote you posted:

"radioactive iodine-131 exceeding safety limits for infants had been detected at 18 water-purification plants in Tokyo and five other prefectures"

That statement is riddled with alarmism. Why not just say what the numbers are? Why bring up babies? What is the "baby limit"? Why? How far above "baby limits" is it? Does it actually present a hazard? Or are we really dealing with agendas and propaganda?

[GIThruster]

Those are good questions but to get the answers you'll need to look into the studies and references. As I'm not a nuclear physicist nor engineer I'm not comfortable analyzing the data on that level, but you need to make sure you understand that if you do, and you decide to contradict the officials who have set what the maximum infant exposure rate ought to be, you darn well better have good reasons.

The Japanese have been living with nuclear exposure for 7 decades. If they say "X level for infants is permissible and no more" I'm going to take them at their word, and those who contradict them can move their families there and put themselves at risk rather than simply contradict them.

Yes, I get it. People lie about what are and are not safe levels all the time. In both directions. The alarmists would have you believe there is no safe level and the opposite side of the fence will tell you that hugely damaging levels are just fine. Just a little aside here. . .

I know a guy who was hired by Teledyne Isotopes as their chief exposure expert. He was hired to check exposure badges. Right out of high school, having taken a soft ride and no college prep classes, he landed a job making $80k/year back in 1975. That is HUGE money. His job, was to cover Teledyne by systematically lying and falsifying the badge records. Literally EVERYONE at TI was getting daily doses thousands of times above the legal limit. That's why they pay high school kids so much money. He left after about a year because his conscience got the better of him, but someone stepped in right behind him and this may still be happening for all I know. I know he reported them to OSHA, but I doubt OSHA did anything.

The lying and misrepresentation happens on both sides. The only real measure we have that we can use is the official law of the land. It doesn't matter that Kite, or you, or anyone else thinks it should be a different standard. We have the standards we have and the water, land and food surrounding Fukushima are all useless now.

You can claim that believing this is part of being a "useful idiot" but instead of that, how about be clever and follow the money. Who do you really think has the vested interest being supported in the nuclear industry? The environmental activists? Surely, you jest! They don't have any money!

In any event, these are disasters. They can't eat the food. They have contamination far, far away down in their water tables. Imagine if everyone in NYC had to drink bottled water and then realize Tokyo is BIGGER than NYC. These are real disasters.

[ladajo]

I have been a "radiation worker". I am well educated and versed in the Health Physics invovled. It came with the job. I can tell you that while yes the are some unknowns, there are LARGE buffers in the margins.
This is a result of the "nookiller" culture and imposed mythology surrounding nuclear weapons.
You say "Nuclear Power Plant" and the average Joe will think "Nuclear Weapon". But the two could not be further apart.

Japan is a unique case and culturally has a very heavy dose of "nookiller" culture. Go figure, they got nuked twice. Now, they are thinking they have been nuked three times. This cultural attitude has been further by the support of anti-nuclear activists from around the world that supported the many shrines and memorials decorating the ground zero sites in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The offset in Japanese society is the cultural imperative to defer to authority. So if authority wants to build power plants, then so be it.

The irony in all this is how many folks around the world live in this propagandized state of "nookillerism" and don't know it. Pick a random person in the street and ask them when folks will be able to live in Nagasaka again since it was "nooked" in the war and made radioactive. Standby for a comedy of answers.
Then for fun you can show them this:



or this:



or a nice shot with a little kid...

[KitemanSA]

Real Estate in Japan is amongst the highest in the world since there is so little of it. Are you really making the claim that the Japanese of all people, don't know when radioactive pollution renders real estate poisoned, dangerous and useless? And you have what facts that they are wrong in this?

Yes.
Read up at the web site BELLE (Biologic Effects of Low Level Exposure) http://www.belleonline.com/newsletters.htm and learn about the big lie that has crippled our future for years. Also look up "Radiation Hormesis". The "red zone" around Fukushima is within the low level, non-hazardous, or even beneficial range.

I would bet big money that most if not all the displaced residents know this and are pissed at the government for not letting them home.

[KitemanSA]

.Radiation limits are set with a healthy margin to actual hazard levels.

Heck, radiation levels are set based on the Linear No Threshold model which is based on an outright lie made for political purposes.

[GIThruster]

I wouldn't say it is a lie and less that it is made for political purposes, but the linear zero-tolerance model certainly is wrong. Trouble is most non-scientists would assume it is right. That's a different and more serious problem.

Now if you want to make the argument that everyone holding the linear zero-tolerance model as opposed to the hormesis model is a useful idiot, I'm still going to argue with you about what you think is useful about it. It's not useful.

Even granting the hormesis model though, would you go live next to Fukushima? Of course not. Would you take advantage of the plummeting real estate values around Chernobyl? No. These are still disasters no matter what model you adopt.

But yeah, I'm all with you on the hormesis issue. The fix is not to pretend these aren't disasters.

[ladajo]

Even granting the hormesis model though, would you go live next to Fukushima?

If I had a house there that I had been kicked out of, yes, I would. As some are already.

[ladajo]

The fix is not to pretend these aren't disasters.

The fix is making sure that when you say "disaster", it is in context, correct, and understood properly.

Yes it is a disaster that TEPCO lost completely a major facility through some stupid cover my ass management decisions.
Saying that the disaster is the Radioactive Wasteland created around Fukishima is not exactly true, when it is actually not really a Radioactive Wasteland.

Was Cherynobl worse than Fukishima? I say yes, to the extent that Cherynobl had flaming fireballs of core material rocketing through the air and contaminating the site as it burned and exploded. Fukishima did not.

Is the immediate area around Cherynobl a disaster area? Well yes. See flaming fireballs of core material mentioned above. Two completely different accidents. Fukishima melted down and had H2 explosions crack containment causing contaminated cooling water and gases to escape. Cherynobl had a CATASTROPHIC detonation of the core itself, and had no real containment to fail, ergo flying chunks of flaming core arcing through the air.

[KitemanSA]

I wouldn't say it is a lie and less that it is made for political purposes, ...

Nobel Prize Winner Lied About Radiation Danger
Why Do People Believe That All Nuclear Radiation is Harmful today?
News from 2011
Nobel prize winner Hermann Muller knowingly lied when he claimed in 1946 that there is no safe level of radiation exposure, a new study asserts. This led to the Linear No Threashold model for radiation that states "there is no safe level of nuclear radiation"'

UMass researcher points to suppression of evidence on radiation effects by 1946 Nobel Laureate.

AMHERST, Mass. – University of Massachusetts Amherst environmental toxicologist Edward Calabrese, whose career research shows that low doses of some chemicals and radiation are benign or even helpful, says he has uncovered evidence that one of the fathers of radiation genetics, Nobel Prize winner Hermann Muller, knowingly lied when he claimed in 1946 that there is no safe level of radiation exposure.

Calabrese’s interpretation of this history is supported by letters and other materials he has retrieved, many from formerly classified files. He published key excerpts this month in Archives of Toxicology and Environmental and Molecular Mutagenesis.

Muller was awarded the 1946 Nobel Prize in medicine for his discovery that X-rays induce genetic mutations. He experimented between 1927 and 1946, working his way down from high levels of radiation in 1927 to the very lowest levels by 1945. His low level radiation experiments showed LESS mutations than would occur at even lower normal background radiation. He was astounded to see this. In collaboration with other scientists concerned over the dangers of atomic testing they agreed to not mention the harmlessness of low level radiation. Muller’s intentions were good, Calabrese points out, but his decision not to mention key scientific evidence showing a positive effect has had a far-reaching impact on our approach to regulating radiation and chemical exposure. It led directly to an extreme fear of radiation by the public worldwide. It also lead to the dismissal by the scientific community of the healing effects of radiation. A few leading scientists like Calabrese and Luckey refused to abandon their research on Radiation Hormesis.
These positive effects of nuclear radiation were hidden by a number of key scientists for political reasons. It was not until Dr. T D Luckey published his Radiation Hormesis book in 1981 that serious study of the subject was restarted after a break of nearly half a century. Political propaganda seriously affected the advancement of science and it has been very difficult to do low level radiation research since 1960.

He knew his statement was wrong. He lied to end atomic testing (political purpose). QED.