14th US-Japan Workshop on IECF

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Fusion R&D Phase 1 - Validate and extend WB-6 results with WB-7 Device:
1.5 years / $1.8M, Successfully Completed
http://www.emc2fusion.org/

This means Wiffleball is proven (again). That was the point. Confinement.

WB-8's (and 8.1's) point is scaling. Not done yet.

This is also worth a review if you have read it already, if not it is a must read:

http://www.emc2fusion.org/RsltsNFnlConc ... 120602.pdf

And this of course is also useful:
WB-6 showed 1/10 of loss coefficient of WB-4, and ran as a deep well Polywell at 10-12 keV, producing DD fusions at 2.5E9 fus/sec. This is 200,000 times higher than the early work of Hirsch/Farnsworth and a world’s record for such IEF devices at same conditions.
PROVEN
High energy potential well depth, ion focussing and trapping, fusion reactions, electron trapping, electron (MG) transport loss scaling, cusp loss mechanisms, well and field macrostability, neutral gas wall reflux suppression, limiting configurations and detailed design constraints for minimal losses, computer code design ability for machine B and E fields,
fusion/electric power systems design codes, DD fusion output in five machines, world’s record DD fusion output in final experiments, determined and verified all design scaling laws for physics and engineering constraints, definition of RDT&E for full scale net-power demonstration, prototype development plans, schedules and costs.
http://www.emc2fusion.org/QuikHstryOfPolyPgm0407.pdf

Personally, I think you can 100% sure that Wiffleball is proven at this point.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

rcain
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Post by rcain »

ladajo wrote:...
Personally, I think you can 100% sure that Wiffleball is proven at this point.
Personally, i'd like to see that

a) published somewhere in a peer reviewed journal
b) replicated successfully by someone else,
c) fully characterised

... before being '98.5%' sure ;)

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Me too. But that said, I really do think they have moved past "Wiffleball" and are now fully into scaling.

Seriously, why test scaling if you do not have confinement? What would be the purpose of seeking to show, "oooh! Looky Here! Even more crappy confinement than the smaller version!"
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

rcain
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Post by rcain »

ladajo wrote:Me too. But that said, I really do think they have moved past "Wiffleball" and are now fully into scaling.

Seriously, why test scaling if you do not have confinement? What would be the purpose of seeking to show, "oooh! Looky Here! Even more crappy confinement than the smaller version!"
the optimist in me is inclined to agree. but the skeptic in me is thinking they would continue to test scaling even if confinement was 'marginal'. ie. having come this far, the extra bucks pays for a more 'complete' characterisation of the approach - warts and all.

ie. scaling, in its self, may still have turned out to be a blocker, had it/were it not to pan out according to theory.

however, if polywell comes out of the process with ticks in all boxes - even if they are ALL marginal - it might still remain a contender amongst all other alternative projects.

in other words, i am not expecting Polywell to have a 'clear' path to success - im sure there are many problems remaining to be solved right now.

i'm just hoping the public/open source domain is able to 'catch up' eventually (scale=$), or even spot a 'green-enough' light to consider it.

ps. i do also think that the 'Wiffleball' effect should be easy enough to verify in lesser labs than Department of the Navy - ie. accessible and well characterisable at much lesser scale - (Sydney, Prometheus? ) notwithstanding (correct) comments that it is 'more pronounced' at greater scale (B-field). pps. there's got to be a good few Phd's in such a study/publication, at least.

rcain
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Post by rcain »

bennmann wrote:Well now you've gone and made me look up the actual papers, which incidentally were not behind a paywall for me - let me know if they are for you.

University of Sydney paper:
http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v1 ... ypassSSO=1

(this one mentions wiffle ball terminology please ctrl-F it and this article is the money shot)
http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v1 ... ypassSSO=1

Seems to be confirmed third party wiffle ball to me.
just scanned through that 2nd paper: following caught my eye::
http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v17/i5/p052510_s1?view=fulltext&bypassSSO=1 wrote:{on electron injection}... A fraction of the injected beam with velocities outside the loss cone are reflected from the Polywell™ faces. This idea predicts that there will be a threshold point where a potential well can no longer form since a substantial portion of the injected electron beam is now reflected and no longer enters the device, explaining the observed phenomena.
looks like the same injection issues EMC2/US Navy were dealing with on the FOI request thread. all to be expected.

interesting question: is it possible to make an 'asymmetric' loss-cone? (i'm assuming you'd need multiple coils somehow...)?

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

rcain wrote: looks like the same injection issues EMC2/US Navy were dealing with on the FOI request thread. all to be expected.

interesting question: is it possible to make an 'asymmetric' loss-cone? (i'm assuming you'd need multiple coils somehow...)?
Maybe they should try to inject them though the X-Cusp of a more proper Polywell.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

in other words, i am not expecting Polywell to have a 'clear' path to success - im sure there are many problems remaining to be solved right now.
Fully Agree.

I am also struggling to some degree to reconcile both Bussard's and Nebel's thoughts that at full scale geometry, it can be possible to provide e- by fuel ionization to the degree that injection is not required.

My current mental model suggests you drive the well up to a "self-sustain" tip-over, and then let the fuel source provide e- for sustainment. However, To make the mental leaps work for me it still requires a couple of brain torques to complete the path. Needless to say, brain torques are somewhat physically uncomfortable.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Robthebob
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Post by Robthebob »

I think it's nice that Dr. Nebel is still working on polywell related stuff. That cleared up some confusion. (talking about his presentation at this conference)
Throwing my life away for this whole Fusion mess.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

rcain wrote:
bennmann wrote:Well now you've gone and made me look up the actual papers, which incidentally were not behind a paywall for me - let me know if they are for you.

University of Sydney paper:
http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v1 ... ypassSSO=1

(this one mentions wiffle ball terminology please ctrl-F it and this article is the money shot)
http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v1 ... ypassSSO=1

Seems to be confirmed third party wiffle ball to me.
just scanned through that 2nd paper: following caught my eye::
http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v1 ... ypassSSO=1{on electron injection}... A fraction of the injected beam with velocities outside the loss cone are reflected from the Polywell™ faces. This idea predicts that there will be a threshold point where a potential well can no longer form since a substantial portion of the injected electron beam is now reflected and no longer enters the device, explaining the observed phenomena.
looks like the same injection issues EMC2/US Navy were dealing with on the FOI request thread. all to be expected.

interesting question: is it possible to make an 'asymmetric' loss-cone? (i'm assuming you'd need multiple coils somehow...)?
I'm not certain, but the question of electron injection efficiency my have different parameters in an ion gun and a gas puff machine. In an ion gun machine the ions are injected while the gas puffer design has the ions created inside (or near the surface of the Wiffleball.). This means the electrons population is generated in different ways. In the gas puffer, one injected hot electron may create through ionization of a neutral gass up to ~ 100 cool electrons (10,000 ev/ 100 eV ratio).
This still leaves the issue of heating the cool secondary electrons. The energy for this comes from the injected hot electrons. Issues of confinement time may be very important in comparison to injection efficiency. Bussard estimated potential well depths 0f appx 80 percent of the injection energy. This may represent the injection inneficiency. A statement that a percentage of the electrons being lost to injection does not mean much with out a stated expected number (1%, 10%, 50%, 99%?).
WB 5 and WB6 comparisons may be enlightening. WB5 was approaching deep potentail wells, but it required exponential increases in electron input currents. How much of the inefficiencies in WB5 was due to input inefficiencies vs confinement inefficiencies is not reported. But in WB6 the improvement in confinement seemed to far outweigh the input requirements, ie: the improved confinement was much more important than input efficiencies. That recirculation efficiency of hot electrons was ~ 90% efficient also implies that under certain conditions this input method at least was highly efficient.
Also, in the patent application, it is given that geometry and e- gun distance outside the cusp is important both for preventing cusp plugging, and to maintain acceptable injection efficiency. It is evident that Bussard, etel considered the issue, whether an engineering solution is in place is another matter.

Also, I suspect the high voltage e- gun injection is different from the low voltage e- guns. With the high voltage e-guns the electrons are at eg- 12000 volts and the beam spreading of the electron beam is dependant on that energy begining from the e-gun surface (or very near it). With the low voltage e-guns the electrostatic/ scattering -beam spreading is less (?), as most of the acceleration comes when the electrons approach the +12000 V magrid surface. And, I am guessing that most of the acceleration occurs while the electrons are deep in the steep portion of the cusp. In effect I see the hieh energy e-gun having a greater spread of the e-beam, and thus more mirroring away from the cusp. With the magrid acceleration of the low energy electrons from a low voltage e-gun, I see the electric fields focusing the electrons deeper into the cusp . In other words the high energy e-guns spray out electrons and only those that hit the cusp nearly head on will enter. With the initially low energy electrons, the electrostatic charge on the magrid surfaces surrounding the cusp does a better job of focusing the electrons towards the center of the cusp before magnetic mirroring comes into play.
This could also be looked at as the high voltage e- guns spraying electrons out in all directions at high energy/ speeds, while the low voltage e-guns also spray the electrons out in all directions but at much slower speeds. The electrostatic charge surrounding the magrid accelerates the electrons towards the center of the cusps. In effect it is the difference between a poorly and a well collimated electron beam. With the high energy electron gun (magrid grounded), a similar effect may be achieved by designing the e- dun to emit a well collimated electron beam focused on the cusp, verses the bruit force, uncollimated e- gun represented by a light bulb hot filament

Knobs would be e-gun design, accelerating potential at the e-gun or the magrid, distance from the cusp, and geometry of the cusp. Also , I believe that a grounded magrid (with high voltage e-guns) might stop escaping highe energy electrons, but if they then recirculated back into the machine, they would be cold ( not re-accelerated by the high + potential on the magrid. For recirculation purposes you need the high positive potential on the magrid. This does not preclude high negative potentials on the s- guns, but does imply that some best compromize may need to be explored.


PS: Concerning corner cusps vs face centered cusps for injection sites may also be significant as mentioned by Kiteman. It seams that I recall corner cusps being the preferred injection site for the e-guns.
The corner cusps are presumably tighter with steeper loss cones and this might favor higher injection efficiencies compared to the face centered point cusps.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

DeltaV
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Re: 14th US-Japan Workshop on IECF

Post by DeltaV »

Almost all of the papers are now available as PDFs.
http://www.aero.umd.edu/sedwick/posters.html

ladajo
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Re: 14th US-Japan Workshop on IECF

Post by ladajo »

Thanks for back checking. I was thinking about this the other day and had not got around to it yet.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

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