Laser Fusion produced excess energy.

[Diogenes]

I understand that they meet the requirements for weapons, which are quite different from this. I would like to see some information that states that they can bring the efficiency at the power levels and wavelength required for something like NIF.

Not yet, but probably within 5 years.

FEL is a fantastic way to lase.

Agree. It can be designed for any frequency, and any power level. It is not reliant on natural emission, it's emission frequency can be defined strictly by the mathematics.

[Skipjack]

Great if lead works. That still does not fix any of the other problems. The cost of the hohlraum is not just that of the materials. Still no answers regarding the power conversion, the tritium breeding and management and size of the facility and initial capital investment cost. Why would I choose that over a much further developed tokamak?

Of course lead will work. And mass production of hohlraums will further reduce costs (significantly I would say).

As for choosing Tokamak over Laser. Well, let's see. Hmmm. For one Tokamak will NEVER be cost efficient and everyone knows it.
Laser can be much more cost efficient. You are basing all your thinking on NIF. NIF was never meant to represent what an active power plant might look like.
If you think that NIF was commissioned in 2009, and have met a major goal (on the fusion theme) by igniting a pellet, after only 4 years of work. And it took about 5 years to build as I recall. Well let's see again, how long will it take to build ITER? How much will it cost in the end? And will that be a viable power plant?
I would back NIF long before I would back ITER. NIFs only real problem is that the media jacks up reporting on it all the time and misuses terminology and intent.
Outside of the secondary effort fusion research, they have been doing some wonderful weapons work. But you wouldn't know about that would you?

ITER was never meant to be an actual power plant either, nor was JT60, which achieved essentially the same NIF did, but almost 20 years ago (JET even before that, if we do the math twisty thingy).
Also NIF was commissioned in 1996. So we are almost 20 years into the project already and before NIF, we had NOVA which made the same promises and failed miserably. So far NIF has also been behind the promises.
Also, of course I am basing my thinking on NIF, as I am critizising NIF and not laser fusion in general. I even pointed out a much more practical PB11 capable laser fusion concept from Europe, that is table top sized and was done on a much smaller budget. But NIF as it is will suffer from the very same problems that make ITER so expensive, if not worse:
a) energy extraction and conversion
b) Tritium breeding and management
c) Where do the lithium blankets go?
d) How to maintain the reactor vessel (erosion, shielding, etc)?

I absolutely do NOT care about their weapons work. In fact it is one of my main issues with it: Hidden defense spending sold to the gullible public as an energy project, all the while most other domestic fusion research got stripped down to ITER and NIF. Now I am NOT a fan of ITER, but at least toks have a path to economic reactors that I see. NIF does not. LIFE is the same crap^3

[ladajo]

Also NIF was commissioned in 1996

Absolutely wrong.

Ground was broken on 29 May, 1997.
The project then went into a slow roll due to politics and funding drama, and the 2nd of the laser bays commissioned in 2008.
Final facility full-up commissioning was on 29 May, 2009.

You should care about weapons reserach regarding NIF, as THAT IS WHAT IT WAS BUILT FOR.
The media are the ones hyping the Fusion Energy side.
NIF and DoE has also used it to some degree to plus up funds.
If the energy side went completely away, NIF would remain fully funded for weapons work as it is the only option.

It is a basic research facility in regards to fusion energy. It is not meant to go anywhere beyond that.
If you wanted to build a Laser Ignition Fusion energy research facility, it most certainly would not look like NIF.
And oh by the way, the inner liner of the primary chamber at NIF is 30cm of borated concrete.

[Skipjack]

Also NIF was commissioned in 1996

Absolutely wrong.

Ground was broken on 29 May, 1997.
The project then went into a slow roll due to politics and funding drama, and the 2nd of the laser bays commissioned in 2008.
Final facility full-up commissioning was on 29 May, 2009.

You should care about weapons reserach regarding NIF, as THAT IS WHAT IT WAS BUILT FOR.
The media are the ones hyping the Fusion Energy side.
NIF and DoE has also used it to some degree to plus up funds.
If the energy side went completely away, NIF would remain fully funded for weapons work as it is the only option.

It is a basic research facility in regards to fusion energy. It is not meant to go anywhere beyond that.
If you wanted to build a Laser Ignition Fusion energy research facility, it most certainly would not look like NIF.
And oh by the way, the inner liner of the primary chamber at NIF is 30cm of borated concrete.

Yes ground was broken then, but the work on NIF started much earlier. There was a lot of design work and test article work that happened before the actual construction started. This is the same for ITER. I DO KNOW THAT IT WAS BUILT FOR WEAPONS RESARCH, DAMMIT! It is sold (via press releases like this) to the general public as a energy research program. I would much rather they put the money into projects that could lead to useful reactor designs. There are plenty that need funding! We all know them. So I don't need to list them. Instead much of the domestic fusion program was cancelled in favor the two behemoths ITER and NIF. And then these guys keep promoting themselves as if they had something that the general public actually cares about, which they don't and that pisses me of.
Also, it does not matter what the inner chamber of NIF is made of. It is useless in a power production setting, or how the hell do you expect to extract power from boronated concrete and breed tritium with that?

[ladajo]

Dude.
You are scrambling now. Relax. You were wrong. It is okay. It happens. Until I idiot checked myself, I was wrong in my recall guess of six years.

NIF does not care about energy cpature, nor will it ever, so that point is completely moot. I don't know why you keep coming back to it.

So let's talk about the root issue you seem to have:

(via press releases like this)

You are wrong again. There was no press release.
I invite you to go back to post #1 on this thread and see what it says.

Here I will help you:

http://www.nbcnews.com/#/science/scienc ... eap-n27796

You are up in arms about an NBC news article, which was mostly based on a submission in Nature.
If you could slow down a bit and actually read the words you will find you are leaping ahead based on your preconcieved bias against NIF.

Here, let me help you again:

Ignition is needed to make fusion energy a viable alternative energy source, but has yet to be achieved. A key step on the way to ignition is to have the energy generated through fusion reactions in an inertially confined fusion plasma exceed the amount of energy deposited into the deuterium–tritium fusion fuel and hotspot during the implosion process, resulting in a fuel gain greater than unity. Here we report the achievement of fusion fuel gains exceeding unity on the US National Ignition Facility using a ‘high-foot’ implosion method

This is the opening from the abstract of the paper in Nature. PLEASE take careful note of the very first sentence.
Here it is again:

Ignition is needed to make fusion energy a viable alternative energy source, but has yet to be achieved

Any hyp eor misrepresentation is purely a function of media interpretation of things they don't fully understand. It happens all the time.
If you don't like it, take it up with the media.

How much of the general public reads Nature? And you think that publishing results in Nature is propaganda targeting the general public?
Seriously?

Nature NIF Paper

[ladajo]

Dude.
You are scrambling now. Relax. You were wrong. It is okay. It happens. Until I idiot checked myself, I was wrong in my recall guess of six years.

NIF does not care about energy cpature, nor will it ever, so that point is completely moot. I don't know why you keep coming back to it.

So let's talk about the root issue you seem to have:

(via press releases like this)

You are wrong again. There was no press release.
I invite you to go back to post #1 on this thread and see what it says.

Here I will help you:

http://www.nbcnews.com/#/science/scienc ... eap-n27796

You are up in arms about an NBC news article, which was mostly based on a submission in Nature.
If you could slow down a bit and actually read the words you will find you are leaping ahead based on your preconcieved bias against NIF.

Here, let me help you again:

Ignition is needed to make fusion energy a viable alternative energy source, but has yet to be achieved. A key step on the way to ignition is to have the energy generated through fusion reactions in an inertially confined fusion plasma exceed the amount of energy deposited into the deuterium–tritium fusion fuel and hotspot during the implosion process, resulting in a fuel gain greater than unity. Here we report the achievement of fusion fuel gains exceeding unity on the US National Ignition Facility using a ‘high-foot’ implosion method

This is the opening from the abstract of the paper in Nature. PLEASE take careful note of the very first sentence.
Here it is again:

Ignition is needed to make fusion energy a viable alternative energy source, but has yet to be achieved

Any hype or misrepresentation is purely a function of media misinterpretation of things they don't fully understand. It happens all the time.
If you don't like it, take it up with the media.

How much of the general public reads Nature? And you think that publishing results in Nature is propaganda targeting the general public?
Seriously?

This graph sure looks like a leap ahead in basic research worthy of a paper submission to me.




Nature NIF Paper

[Skipjack]

NIF press release:
https://www.llnl.gov/news/aroundthelab/ ... v5JIGeYZhE

[ladajo]

Well of course they make press releases. This surprises you how?

And in regard to this dastardly evil misuse of public funds press release seeking to further misuse public funds:

What is ambigious about this?

LIVERMORE, Calif. - Ignition -- the process of releasing fusion energy equal to or greater than the amount of energy used to confine the fuel -- has long been considered the "holy grail" of inertial confinement fusion science. A key step along the path to ignition is to have "fuel gains" greater than unity, where the energy generated through fusion reactions exceeds the amount of energy deposited into the fusion fuel.

Though ignition remains the ultimate goal, the milestone of achieving fuel gains greater than 1 has been reached for the first time ever on any facility. In a paper published in the Feb. 12 online issue of the journal Nature, scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) detail a series of experiments on the National Ignition Facility (NIF), which show an order of magnitude improvement in yield performance over past experiments.

Here, I will help you again:
The second sentence;

A key step along the path to ignition is to have "fuel gains" greater than unity, where the energy generated through fusion reactions exceeds the amount of energy deposited into the fusion fuel.

And I ask again, how many of the general public read LLNL Press releases? Almost none? Yup, that's what I thought.

What an incredibly effective misinformation campaign they are executing! They must be reaching 1000 general public people across the country directly. Not bad for a country of 300 Million.

Oh but wait! Here they shoot themselves in the foot in the same press release! Darn it!

The chief mission of NIF is to provide experimental insight and data for the National Nuclear Security Administration's science-based Stockpile Stewardship Program. This experiment represents an important milestone in the continuing demonstration that the stockpile can be kept safe, secure and reliable without a return to nuclear testing. Ignition physics and performance also play a key role in fundamental science, and for potential energy applications.

Turns out it is not primarily about making viable fusion power after all.

[Skipjack]

Well of course they make press releases. This surprises you how?

And in regard to this dastardly evil misuse of public funds press release seeking to further misuse public funds:

What is ambigious about this?

LIVERMORE, Calif. - Ignition -- the process of releasing fusion energy equal to or greater than the amount of energy used to confine the fuel -- has long been considered the "holy grail" of inertial confinement fusion science. A key step along the path to ignition is to have "fuel gains" greater than unity, where the energy generated through fusion reactions exceeds the amount of energy deposited into the fusion fuel.

Though ignition remains the ultimate goal, the milestone of achieving fuel gains greater than 1 has been reached for the first time ever on any facility. In a paper published in the Feb. 12 online issue of the journal Nature, scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) detail a series of experiments on the National Ignition Facility (NIF), which show an order of magnitude improvement in yield performance over past experiments.

Here, I will help you again:
The second sentence;

A key step along the path to ignition is to have "fuel gains" greater than unity, where the energy generated through fusion reactions exceeds the amount of energy deposited into the fusion fuel.

And I ask again, how many of the general public read LLNL Press releases? Almost none? Yup, that's what I thought.

What an incredibly effective misinformation campaign they are executing! They must be reaching 1000 general public people across the country directly. Not bad for a country of 300 Million.

Dude, you do know how press releases work, right? Obviously the press release was picked up by... drumroll... the press
Which then made it available to a wider audience. Either way, this discussion is leading nowhere. You are not going to change my opinion about NIF.

[ladajo]

Oh but wait! Here they shoot themselves in the foot in the same press release! Darn it!

The chief mission of NIF is to provide experimental insight and data for the National Nuclear Security Administration's science-based Stockpile Stewardship Program. This experiment represents an important milestone in the continuing demonstration that the stockpile can be kept safe, secure and reliable without a return to nuclear testing. Ignition physics and performance also play a key role in fundamental science, and for potential energy applications.

Turns out it is not primarily about making viable fusion power after all.

I know I won't change your opinion. It doesn't matter. You want to see NIF for something it isn't and nothing I say is going to change that.

I guess the press that bothered to read that press release chose to ignore the bit above huh? Especially the part about how it was supporting stockpile stewardship, and as a secondary is useful in the wider pursuit of fusion energy.

NIF is not what you want to be angry about. Too bad you can't see that. It would save you some stress and add time to your life.

[Skipjack]

I know I won't change your opinion. It doesn't matter. You want to see NIF for something it isn't and nothing I say is going to change that.
I guess the press that bothered to read that press release chose to ignore the bit above huh? Especially the part about how it was supporting stockpile stewardship, and as a secondary is useful in the wider pursuit of fusion energy.
NIF is not what you want to be angry about. Too bad you can't see that. It would save you some stress and add time to your life.

No, I am angry about the fact that funding for most non Tok and non NIF related domestic fusion projects has been cut and that NIF which has no use that I care about keeps getting billions in funding.
The gullible public is sold on this with shady press releases and wrong premises.

[ladajo]

I understand what you are saying and agree on the Tokamak lane.
But I just do not think it is fair for you to lump NIF in, as that is not what NIF does or is meant to do. It is a sideshow. NIF is funded for weapons which has nothing to do with your Fusion wasted money argument.

I also do not think that this:

shady press releases

applies to this:

The chief mission of NIF is to provide experimental insight and data for the National Nuclear Security Administration's science-based Stockpile Stewardship Program. This experiment represents an important milestone in the continuing demonstration that the stockpile can be kept safe, secure and reliable without a return to nuclear testing. Ignition physics and performance also play a key role in fundamental science, and for potential energy applications.

It is VERY clear what they are saying and mean.

The experiment was conducted as part of the stockpile management program. The experiment has an additional benefit in basic research for energy applications.

Nothing shady or ambigious about that. Very up front.

[Skipjack]

I understand what you are saying and agree on the Tokamak lane.
But I just do not think it is fair for you to lump NIF in, as that is not what NIF does or is meant to do. It is a sideshow. NIF is funded for weapons which has nothing to do with your Fusion wasted money argument.

I also do not think that this:

shady press releases

applies to this:

The chief mission of NIF is to provide experimental insight and data for the National Nuclear Security Administration's science-based Stockpile Stewardship Program. This experiment represents an important milestone in the continuing demonstration that the stockpile can be kept safe, secure and reliable without a return to nuclear testing. Ignition physics and performance also play a key role in fundamental science, and for potential energy applications.

It is VERY clear what they are saying and mean.

The experiment was conducted as part of the stockpile management program. The experiment has an additional benefit in basic research for energy applications.

Nothing shady or ambigious about that. Very up front.

No, you don't get my point. I know and always knew that NIF was not a fusion energy program (the majority of the population doesn't though) as you can see from various posts by me in other threads over the years. I don't care about NIFs value as a defense project (which is still not a given yet either). I think it is a giant waste of money and therefore I would rather see the billions go to other domestic fusion projects.

[ladajo]

which is still not a given yet either

Actually it is. But you are right, the public does not know that, nor really will they ever outside of somewhat bland statements like the press release.
NIF has provided great service in its relatively short existence supporting Stockpile Management. You will just have to take my word for it.
I can only assure you that it serves it purpose well, and in doing so is removing the need to live weapons tests which I would hope you are happy about.

Without NIF we would be popping nukes for testing. NIF is a direct result of US compliance with the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. Another interesting point is that the Russians and Chinese have no analog.
It is unfortunate that you do not see its benefits.

I don't intend to be mean, but it would also appear to be somewhat short sighted of you as well.
Money spent on NIF would go to live weapons tests if there was no NIF.

[Skipjack]

Without NIF we would be popping nukes for testing. NIF is a direct result of US compliance with the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

I am a big fan of everything nuclear, with the exception of nuclear bombs. The Russians do not have an equivalent of the NIF and I have not seen them do any nuclear bomb tests recently, have you?