10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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parallel
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Post by parallel »

MSimon wrote:
Oh. Just what specific behavior has given you license to make your libelous remarks?
That he won't tell people how his secret process works?
Au contraire. He has given about 30 incomplete alternative explanations. Each incommensurate with the others and what we think we already know (physics, chemistry, math, metallurgy, engineering - etc.).

Secrecy is not one of Rossi's major problems.
You still have not provided one specific item. Just hand waving "about 30 incomplete explanations."

tomeclarke wrote:
What stripe of joker (scammer, idiot who believes his own inconsistency) who can tell.
So, IF it does work, TC is calling him a scammer. Not to mention idiot.

IF it does work, it might be difficult to show the invention of the century is the work of an idiot. What brilliant things have you invented for comparison?

stefanbanev
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Post by stefanbanev »

MSimon wrote:
Oh. Just what specific behavior has given you license to make your libelous remarks?
That he won't tell people how his secret process works?
Au contraire. He has given about 30 incomplete alternative explanations. Each incommensurate with the others and what we think we already know (physics, chemistry, math, metallurgy, engineering - etc.).

Secrecy is not one of Rossi's major problems.
Rossi is not a "scientist" and all his explanations are his "non-educated" compilation/interpretation of different insights he has learned from different "qualified" people, plus I do not exclude intentional/non-intentional disinformation (aftermath powder is on of such possible case another is the fake demo for Krivit). Bottom line he tries to cope and make the best from his abilities/disabilities to capitalize on something he believes he has found. He is doomed to deal with whatever he has and he is trying very hard taking a huge risk in contrast with passive observers risking nothing but putting upon Rossi tons of sarcasm (totally expected btw...) Therefore the end-user product without being involved in disputes with academia is the most productive way for Rossi...

CKay
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Post by CKay »

stefanbanev wrote:Rossi is not a "scientist" and all his explanations are his "non-educated" compilation/interpretation of different insights he has learned from different "qualified" people, plus I do not exclude intentional/non-intentional disinformation (aftermath powder is on of such possible case another is the fake demo for Krivit). Bottom line he tries to cope and make the best from his abilities/disabilities to capitalize on something he believes he has found.
World changing discoveries like the one Rossi is claiming are incredibly rare. Cheap energy scams are common.

The simple 'it's all a scam' hypothesis neatly explains Rossi's behaviour and only requires that we believe a convicted fraudster to be capable of dishonesty.

Occam's Razor?

ladajo
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Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

I agree that Rossi's behaviour has done nothing to help his case and project. If he spent 25% the energy he has expended on paranoia, and applied it to rational thinking, he would have found that all the drama he cites in this interview about risk and competition and production dilemmas for sites and funding and timing would have been abated by willing and all-in supporters. He will still be stinking rich, and stinking successful, and recorded in the annals of future history as key to mankind, and even have gone to market a year or more faster. Of course, this is all predicated on the idea he has something. If he does not, then it all makes much more sense.

This interview does raise some questions regarding scam and money in that he has once again changed his story on several counts (units sold, production, money resources, plans). The most potentially damming I think is the part where he tacitly, if not activily seeks finance. I think the bit along the lines about "internet sales" adds to fishiness in context. His product to market mechanism verses cash intake remains suspect.

I remain sceptical, and am happy to see what happens once ANYONE gets their mitts on a unit for a REAL independant test that is public. Until that happens, I do not care if he claims he is Jesus Crist. He is a questionable business man with a documented shaky past, currently parading incredible claims. These claims to date have been denied access for a credible visible critical analysis.

The soap opera continues, and has entertainment merit. If he has something, I will buy it. I will still think and say he was an idiot in the way he went about it. If he is scamming, I will not buy it. And I will still think and say he was an idiot in the way he went about it.

Show me, Rossi. Show me.

stefanbanev
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Post by stefanbanev »

CKay wrote:
stefanbanev wrote:Rossi is not a "scientist" and all his explanations are his "non-educated" compilation/interpretation of different insights he has learned from different "qualified" people, plus I do not exclude intentional/non-intentional disinformation (aftermath powder is on of such possible case another is the fake demo for Krivit). Bottom line he tries to cope and make the best from his abilities/disabilities to capitalize on something he believes he has found.
World changing discoveries like the one Rossi is claiming are incredibly rare, cheap energy scams are far more common. The simple 'it's all a scam' hypothesis neatly explains Rossi's behaviour and only requires that we believe that a convicted fraudster is capable of dishonesty.

Occam's Razor?
It is Very True! Yet, I've seen a lot in this life and have developed own criteria what is creditable (or not) and do not expect other people necessarily share them so, from my perspective Rossi case may belong to such rare fluke...

parallel
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Post by parallel »

stefanbanev,

I fell the same way. I'm not sure why these do nothing, paper scientists (few probably have a PhDs as if that makes any difference) have to pile on with the insults.

Everyone knows the chances of a revolutionary invention like this actually working is very small. It is a safe bet to jump on with the assumption that it doesn't work. 99.9% of the time you would win. It doesn't take genius to bet that. It requires a bit more brain power to figure out which one of these unlikely projects really does work.

What have these clowns ever done themselves? It looks like envy to me.

tomclarke
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Contact:

Post by tomclarke »

parallel wrote:stefanbanev,

I fell the same way. I'm not sure why these do nothing, paper scientists (few probably have a PhDs as if that makes any difference) have to pile on with the insults.

Everyone knows the chances of a revolutionary invention like this actually working is very small. It is a safe bet to jump on with the assumption that it doesn't work. 99.9% of the time you would win. It doesn't take genius to bet that. It requires a bit more brain power to figure out which one of these unlikely projects really does work.

What have these clowns ever done themselves? It looks like envy to me.
So parallel, you reckon 0.1% chance of success? That is not what you post. And you also claim it is obvious from the literature that CF does work? So it is simply a matter of judgement. I'll back my - more dangerous given your opinions about the literature - view, and though there are no certainties in this world, I don't backtrack from giving my view.

But it looks like here you are trying to have it both ways: do you think Rossi CF works, or not? If not, why do you continually defend Rossi, who must surely be a charlatan if his stuff does not work?
Last edited by tomclarke on Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ladajo
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Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

Parallel,
It seems that you blind yourself to Rossi's behaviour? Why is it not part of your rational if that is so?
I am not looking to pick a fight with you. I am looking to understand why you do not take the Rossi story as a whole? I also do not understand why you insist that he has proved his E-Cat conclusively when he has not.
Again, I am not looking to call you names, nor start an irrational fight. I am just trying to understand your total argument, as well as any counterarguments you have identified and addressed.
Can you list the 5 top reasons why you believe Rossi, and the simple key supporting points, and then also list the 5 top counter arguments you have against Rossi, and then the simple key points for how each is addressed?
If you do not wish to that is fine, but it would help me better understand your view on Rossi and E-Cat as a whole.

stefanbanev
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 am

Post by stefanbanev »

parallel wrote:stefanbanev,

I fell the same way. I'm not sure why these do nothing, paper scientists (few probably have a PhDs as if that makes any difference) have to pile on with the insults.

Everyone knows the chances of a revolutionary invention like this actually working is very small. It is a safe bet to jump on with the assumption that it doesn't work. 99.9% of the time you would win. It doesn't take genius to bet that. It requires a bit more brain power to figure out which one of these unlikely projects really does work.

What have these clowns ever done themselves? It looks like envy to me.
Definitely the envy is one of reasons but I'm sure it's an unconscious reaction since the arrogance does protect them. The picture is more complex & messy to formulate it accurately; anyway, as I said the arrogance of one gives money to other...

CKay
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Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:13 am

Post by CKay »

parallel wrote:I'm not sure why these do nothing, paper scientists (few probably have a PhDs as if that makes any difference) have to pile on with the insults.
So where you wrote "do nothing, paper scientists", that wasn't an insult?

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

Kahuna wrote:Rossi gave a lengthy interview on SmartScarecrow Show yesterday recorded here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP5cG-36Bag

Summary (per Aussie Guy on Vortex):
10 kW home E-Cat is the size of a portable computer.
Rossi calls the recharges "Energy Sticks", fits with the ball point pen refill statement.
Replacement is simple and can be done by anyone.
No H2 canisters used. Reactor stores and recycles the H2. Only uses picograms of H2.
Reactor control is via regulation of operational heat point.
Fuel lasts 4,320 operational hours (180 days at 24 hours a day).
E-Cat will signal when refill is needed.
Customer can purchase several refills and keep them in stock.
Cost of the refill to the customer will be $10 plus installation if needed.
Will be available via internet sales.
Home units will run in self sustain mode.
512 keV 180 deg Gammas have been detected.
1st 1 MW plant is in modification. Should be operation in 1 - 2 months.
12 additional 1 MW plants are being built.
1 additional 1 MW plant has been sold to another customer.
UL certification of the home E-Cat is in process.
2.7 to 2.9 kWs needed for 1 hour to start the home 10 kW E-Cat.
Home E-Cat has only 1 reactor.
Rossi claims the RFG helps the Coulomb barrier work with the reaction and not against it.
First E-Cat factory is in Florida. Rossi is going to Massachusetts to further discuss building another E-Cat plant there.
Home E-Cat production will start in the US fall. Sales will start in the US winter.
Rossi is not interested in family investors as the business is still risky.
Large hedge funds are welcome but only with a small % investment.
Does plan to go public.
Home E-Cat has a 30 year expected life.
Customer price between $400 to $500 for a home E-Cat 10 kW thermal unit.
Interesting excerpts and some comments on the claims.

Portable computer size claims? Even if 10 KW of heat is generated, this is thermal heat. If he can convert this heat energy into electrical energy in a portable computer sized device he has another remarkable discovery.

500 KeV gammas? , how does he shield against this in this small package?, and as asked, what the heck does the 180 degrees refer to? Is that the heat contribuion of the gammas (which would be highly lethal in a short amount of time if not heavily shielded- and constant. And if not constant, then not one but two unknown physics processes must be assumed.), are they polarized, or have some preferred exit vector as opposed to being isotropic?

Hydrogen recycled? If so, then where is the heat energy coming from? Is it a free energy device?

If pico grams of hydrogen are used, does he have any idea of how much hydrogen this is?
Assume this amount of hydrogen is used per hour. That would be 0.000000000000001 grams/ hr (10^-12). Even if you assume that each hydrogen used generates 10 MeV of energy, compared to ~ 1 eV for a chemical reaction involving hydrogen, you are talking about a gain of 10^7. This means you would need 10^7 hydrogens to generate as much energy as one hydrogen in the E-Cat. But he claims only 1 pico gram of hydrogen used per hr*, This means the energy output would be 10^7/ 10^-12 = 10^-5 . Thus the output would be comparable to burning ~ 0.01 milligram of hydrogen chemically per hour. Who out there actually thinks this would provide 10 KW of heat output? The numbers are complete nonsense.


* I assumed his claim of one pico gram hydrogen consumption is per hr. If it is 1/ cycle (~ 160 days), the numbers are even more ridiculous. If the rate is per second, then the energy output would still be comparable to less than 0.1 gram of hydrogen burning chemically/ hr or ~ 0.0003 milligrams of hydrogen chemically burning per second.
If Rossi is going to throw out such numbers he should at least do some homework, so that his claims are consistent with each other, or at least a hint of reality. Note that this analysis assumes that his energy out claims are real. Even with this this completely unsupported assumption, his subsequent claims are extremely ridicules.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

CKay
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Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:13 am

Post by CKay »

D Tibbets wrote: If Rossi is going to throw out such numbers he should at least do some homework, so that his claims are consistent with each other, or at least a hint of reality. Note that this analysis assumes that his energy out claims are real. Even with this this completely unsupported assumption, his subsequent claims are extremely ridicules.
Do try to keep up - Rossi is an entrepreneur, not a scientist, so nothing he says has to make the slightest bit of sense. :wink:

charliem
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Post by charliem »

parallel wrote:I'm not sure why these do nothing, paper scientists (few probably have a PhDs as if that makes any difference) have to pile on with the insults.
Nice. Surely insulting PhDs and non PhDs alike with such few words has to have some merit... :D
"The problem is not what we don't know, but what we do know [that] isn't so" (Mark Twain)

stefanbanev
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Post by stefanbanev »

CKay wrote:
D Tibbets wrote: If Rossi is going to throw out such numbers he should at least do some homework, so that his claims are consistent with each other, or at least a hint of reality. Note that this analysis assumes that his energy out claims are real. Even with this this completely unsupported assumption, his subsequent claims are extremely ridicules.
Do try to keep up - Rossi is an entrepreneur, not a scientist, so nothing he says has to make the slightest bit of sense. :wink:
Not quite, any noise carries some information, the marketing one is not an exception. It is heavily prone to interpretation so treat it as such or ignore it. ..

Kahuna
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Post by Kahuna »

NyTeknik article on the NASA video:

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 384163.ece

A number of interesting points including:
Defkalion on the other hand seems to be progressing towards a product launch. Multiple sources told Ny Teknik that several independent tests of Defkalion’s technology are scheduled to take place early this year. Other sources doubt that Defkalion really have its own core technology.

Still, independent tests have not yet been made of either Rossi’s nor Defkalion’s technologies and many critics are still very skeptical.

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