10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Betruger]

On the other hand, if/when someone in the near future pretends there's no use for scientific protocol, we can just point to this perpetual train wreck.

[parallel]

Parallel,
It seems that you blind yourself to Rossi's behaviour? Why is it not part of your rational if that is so?
I am not looking to pick a fight with you. I am looking to understand why you do not take the Rossi story as a whole? I also do not understand why you insist that he has proved his E-Cat conclusively when he has not.
Again, I am not looking to call you names, nor start an irrational fight. I am just trying to understand your total argument, as well as any counterarguments you have identified and addressed.
Can you list the 5 top reasons why you believe Rossi, and the simple key supporting points, and then also list the 5 top counter arguments you have against Rossi, and then the simple key points for how each is addressed?
If you do not wish to that is fine, but it would help me better understand your view on Rossi and E-Cat as a whole.

ladajo,

Normally I ignore your posts as you have insulted me in the past, but it seems opportune to answer your questions again, even though I have done so already several times.

I didn't think Pons and Fleischmann had achieved any meaningful results at the time. I hadn't followed it closely and the great majority seemed to debunk it. As I said, most new things like this don't work.

Rossi bursting on the scene caused me to re-evaluate their work and I found they had been treated very unfairly. The flakey ones who piled on them without understanding - or indeed even taking the trouble to understand their apparatus - are just like those that jump on Rossi or ignorantly support anything the IPCC says about global warming, just because that is the “consensus."

I wrote: “I'm not sure why these do nothing, paper scientists (few probably have a PhDs as if that makes any difference) have to pile on with the insults.” Tomclarke says if it’s true it’s not an insult. My direct experience has been that a fair percentage of scientists don’t do anything that is useful. I could point you to several large government departments to make the case as well. DoE was formed to reduce our reliance on imported oil. Anybody here think they have done that? Likewise the Dept. of Education has imposed such ridiculous programs – like new math- that our students now rank 25th or lower in the world. Those scientists who rely on the piece of parchment they got at college as their reason for being, aren’t worth much.

Much has been made of Mr. Rossi’s brushes with the law. I don’t care about them sufficiently to spend time researching them, but then neither do his critics. It seems that he was caught for tax evasion at a time when he was desperate for funds – trying to smuggle gold. Tax evasion is a way of life in Italy from what I read. Let he who is innocent cast the first stone. Then he was ensnared on some retroactive laws for environmental protection. It seems there was a fair chance that the process he had developed would in fact work. At least some have started doing something very similar here. I’m not enthusiastic about government departments in this area. I recall the river water running by one of our plants in Canada did not meet requirements so if one simply took water from the river one was not allowed to return it without first purifying it. As a result we had to build a cooling tower for the compressors rather than use river water for that purpose as we had before.

I think the E-Car works based largely on the 18 hour experiment run by Prof. Levi using water. I find Dr. Levi trustworthy and unlikely to jeopardize his career over this matter. I also found the experiment on Oct 6th proved heat was generated, even if there is still some doubt about the exact amount. The test of the 1 MW plant was icing on the cake and his subsequent comments about fixing the gaskets and changing the control system to one using National Instruments is not something he needed to report but adds reality to the story. Then, there are a number of competent witnesses who have reported on the demonstrations, all of whom, except Krivit, think it works. Too many people have seen it and think it works for it to be a trick.

No one has suggested how Mr. Rossi might make money from this if it is a fraud. When he doesn’t get paid until after his customers have tested the device, it is difficult to see how he could be cheating. If others have paid him, why have they kept quiet?

Then many tell us how they would have done things differently. That’s a laugh. LENR is definitely proven now so why have they not done it already? Taking Mr. Rossi at his word I think progress has been remarkably swift. Consider that he is building an automated factory with the capacity to make a million E-Cats per year. That tells me he has simplified the original design and now understands it a lot better. Those that claim they would have done things differently simply don’t understand what it is like to do what he has done, nor the problems he faces. They are indeed just paper pushers. I also think his business strategy makes a lot of sense in these circumstances.

[Joseph Chikva]

I didn't think Pons and Fleischmann had achieved any meaningful results at the time. I hadn't followed it closely and the great majority seemed to debunk it. As I said, most new things like this don't work.

Well, you have begun to see clearly at last. But reading your post up to the end, I see that again be mistaken. As nobody knows its secret happy client. He could lie about selling.

[tomclarke]

My direct experience has been that a fair percentage of scientists don’t do anything that is useful. I could point you to several large government departments to make the case as well. DoE was formed to reduce our reliance on imported oil. Anybody here think they have done that? Likewise the Dept. of Education has imposed such ridiculous programs – like new math- that our students now rank 25th or lower in the world. Those scientists who rely on the piece of parchment they got at college as their reason for being, aren’t worth much.

I'm sure there are people in all walks of life, with all qualifications, who don't contribute. But in Europe at least PhDs do good R&D just like non-PhDs. i don't see any loafing around.

But you really seem to have it in for PhDs! Whereas Rossi, who makes extraordinary claims to save the world, repeatedly contradicts himself, and has so far zero evidence he has done anything useful, gets your approbation.

Perhaps some sort of inverted snobbery?

[tomclarke]

I think the E-Car works based largely on the 18 hour experiment run by Prof. Levi using water. I find Dr. Levi trustworthy and unlikely to jeopardize his career over this matter. I also found the experiment on Oct 6th proved heat was generated, even if there is still some doubt about the exact amount. The test of the 1 MW plant was icing on the cake and his subsequent comments about fixing the gaskets and changing the control system to one using National Instruments is not something he needed to report but adds reality to the story. Then, there are a number of competent witnesses who have reported on the demonstrations, all of whom, except Krivit, think it works. Too many people have seen it and think it works for it to be a trick.

Thanks for this clear ands honest assessment.

Your confidence rests on this test I think:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 108242.ece

You are right, a single phase test eliminates the (proven) errors due to assumptions about how much steam is produced.

Alas, looking more closely this test has an equally bad problem, but of a different sort.

The issue is that the high energy output rests on long running with a very low output temperature.

Levi wanted to see the device working for a long time, and was given this, but at what cost...

From the figures above 40C-7C = 33C ~ 130kW

So 15-20kW ~ 4.4C (taking the average value)

Now that is a temperature change from 7C (in) to 11.4C (out)

Notice that the out temperature is well below typical room temperature.

Notice that the output thermometer location is not specified. All you need is some thermal conduction between this unit and ambient, and imperfect thermal conduction with the output stream, and you get this (apparent) rise. That is if some other error does not result in the 4C temperature difference.

In fact, with room temp of 25C, and supposing the output to have equal temperature with input, we have 4.4C temperature differential to output, and 13.6C temperature differential to room. Thus even with thermometer in contact with output stream, a leakage to ambient (via a housing, etc, etc) of 30% the thermal conduction to the output stream would give the observed bogus results. Levi did not check this - indeed had no way to do so without prolonged experimentation, controls, etc.

It would make any thinking person stop and wonder that the ONLY test that is convincing (because it uses otherwise more reliable single phase calorimetry) is equally unconvincing with a small temperature delta and output temperature well below ambient. This is not needed, all you require to get a decent temperature difference is to lower the flow rate. And all the other experiments (with phase change error mechanism, or, later, temperature siting error mechanism) have this!

Now parallel, I know that nothing will change your judgement. But it seems very weird to me. We have:

(1) A large number of demos every one of which has unconvincing results. Whenever one loophole is closed another is opened.

(2) A person who is a convicted criminal (OK - of a minor sort, but clearly careless about honesty), has previously had schemes involving "miracle" technology that never works as claimed, and who has no relevant technical qualifications or experience to either develop or measure his device.

(3) Said person claims to have worked out the underlying theory and has a (bogus) "Journal" to publish his papers. But his technical comments (self-published on blog) are self-contradictory.

(4) Said person has business relationships with another (dubious) company (Defkalion), and contradicts himself repeatedly over what is his business relationship with this company: specifically whether they have ever tested his product.

(5) Said person becomes abusive and paranoid when investigated by an initially friendly, and certainly well-disposed towards CF, Krivit.

(6) Said person stops the (universally unconvincing) public demos and without independent validation, or significant support from any reputable body, claims they are working flat-out to manufacture millions of units in the fastest possible time at low cost.

You can even believe in CF (Many people, like Krivit, do) and see this as very unlikely to be anything real.

[tomclarke]

Too many people have seen it and think it works for it to be a trick.

Ah, yes, proof by number of marks...

Well known.

[CKay]

No one has suggested how Mr. Rossi might make money from this if it is a fraud. When he doesn’t get paid until after his customers have tested the device, it is difficult to see how he could be cheating.

Hasn't there been one reported case where a potential customer, upon enquiring about buying a 1MW plant, was told that Rossi wanted the money upfront and no test was necessary, the publicised 1MW demo would be proof enough!

Anyway, that kind of scenario is one route he might follow to go about defrauding people.

Another would be attracting investors (being careful to mention beforehand that it's a high risk investment, so reducing any comeback when the scheme inevitably evaporates).

his subsequent comments about fixing the gaskets and changing the control system to one using National Instruments is not something he needed to report but adds reality to the story

Yep, adding superfluous detail is just the kind of thing that fraudsters do to lend a story more credibility.

[Kahuna]

his subsequent comments about fixing the gaskets and changing the control system to one using National Instruments is not something he needed to report but adds reality to the story

Yep, adding superfluous detail is just the kind of thing that fraudsters do to lend a story more credibility.

Some of what you say rings true, but NI's involvement with Rossi at some level appears to be genuine and not a fraudsters trick to "add reality to the story." Here is the NI Press Release:

http://digital.ni.com/worldwide/bwconte ... 480060a07f

NEWS RELEASE – Nov. 14, 2011 – National Instruments continues to empower the research and physics industries with high-performance measurement and control technologies. NI provides commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) tools that help the thousands of engineers and scientists who are trying to solve alternative energy challenges with sophisticated devices. With NI LabVIEW system design software, PXI modular instrumentation, the NI CompactRIO reconfigurable control and data acquisition platform and other tools, National Instruments has helped many physicists streamline project development and simplify advanced control solutions that otherwise would be cost-prohibitive.

“For more than 35 years, National Instruments has provided innovators with the tools they need to address the world’s biggest engineering challenges,” said Stefano Concezzi, director of the science and big physics segment at National Instruments. “We are excited about the many ways we are helping customers streamline the development of advanced physics and energy projects.”

Innovators throughout the world are using the NI graphical system design approach to efficiently address the world’s grand engineering challenges in medical technology, urban infrastructure, alternative energy and other critical applications. In physics specifically, NI has contributed product solutions to some of the most advanced projects including the CERN Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and tokamak fusion device control systems. Additionally, the Leonardo Corporation has intentions to incorporate NI tools in its control system.

Readers can learn more about NI solutions for big physics applications at www.ni.com/physics.

At least this part of the Rossi soap opera does not comport with a premeditated fraud to me. If I were NI and suspected the slightest hint of a scam, I certainly would not have included Rossi in this release which they clearly could have done. For some reason they thought it was worth a mention. This is one reason why I do not subscribe to the slam-dunk fraud theory that so many here seem to have adopted very quickly.

[tomclarke]

his subsequent comments about fixing the gaskets and changing the control system to one using National Instruments is not something he needed to report but adds reality to the story

Yep, adding superfluous detail is just the kind of thing that fraudsters do to lend a story more credibility.

Some of what you say rings true, but NI's involvement with Rossi at some level appears to be genuine and not a fraudsters trick to "add reality to the story." Here is the NI Press Release:

http://digital.ni.com/worldwide/bwconte ... 480060a07f

NEWS RELEASE – Nov. 14, 2011 – National Instruments continues to empower the research and physics industries with high-performance measurement and control technologies. NI provides commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) tools that help the thousands of engineers and scientists who are trying to solve alternative energy challenges with sophisticated devices. With NI LabVIEW system design software, PXI modular instrumentation, the NI CompactRIO reconfigurable control and data acquisition platform and other tools, National Instruments has helped many physicists streamline project development and simplify advanced control solutions that otherwise would be cost-prohibitive.

“For more than 35 years, National Instruments has provided innovators with the tools they need to address the world’s biggest engineering challenges,” said Stefano Concezzi, director of the science and big physics segment at National Instruments. “We are excited about the many ways we are helping customers streamline the development of advanced physics and energy projects.”

Innovators throughout the world are using the NI graphical system design approach to efficiently address the world’s grand engineering challenges in medical technology, urban infrastructure, alternative energy and other critical applications. In physics specifically, NI has contributed product solutions to some of the most advanced projects including the CERN Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and tokamak fusion device control systems. Additionally, the Leonardo Corporation has intentions to incorporate NI tools in its control system.

Readers can learn more about NI solutions for big physics applications at www.ni.com/physics.

At least this part of the Rossi soap opera does not comport with a premeditated fraud to me. Some other aspects certainly could.

The only credibility this adds is that Rossi has enough money to buy some NI kit, and is sufficiently plausible that NI put out this PR. Not very difficult:

If he has something NI get good PR
If he has nothing this statement does them no harm.

From Rossi's POV however, using NI kit and getting them to PR like this makes many people more convinced he has something.

My guess is that Rossi is terminally optimistic and genuine, in the sense that he has a reality dysfunction which allows him to interpret the many demos as validating his tech, only it needs "tuning". Further, he has little grasp of reality and does not distinguish between what he hopes will happen, and what he says has happened.

You might think that makes him a fraudster, as might the Courts, though it depends precisely what he tells people who give him money, and who he takes money from.

But it does not necessarily make him a bad person, just a very bad engineer, and somone whose statements you cannot trust.

In this area (free or near free energy) it is a very great mistake to think that because people appear to be honest, you should believe what they say. The people making claims are as likely to fall for free energy wish fulfillment as those reading the claims.

Of course, he could equally well be fraudulent. Both characterisations are compatible with his past behaviour, and the only difference is how honest about risks he is with his donors

[CKay]

Some of what you say rings true, but NI's involvement with Rossi at some level appears to be genuine and not a fraudsters trick to "add reality to the story." Here is the NI Press Release:

http://digital.ni.com/worldwide/bwconte ... 480060a07f

Leonardo Corporation has intentions to incorporate NI tools in its control system.

At least this part of the Rossi soap opera does not comport with a premeditated fraud to me.

That press release only talks about "intentions to incorporate" - so all we can say for sure is that Rossi has talked to them.

Remember, he's met with all sorts of impressive bodies, but so far nothing concrete has emerged from any of it.

And all of these various meetings can absolutely be seen through the prism of premeditated fraud, as attempts to bolster his credibility just by the mere suggestion of an association with respected institutions and large companies.

[tomclarke]

Some of what you say rings true, but NI's involvement with Rossi at some level appears to be genuine and not a fraudsters trick to "add reality to the story." Here is the NI Press Release:

http://digital.ni.com/worldwide/bwconte ... 480060a07f

Leonardo Corporation has intentions to incorporate NI tools in its control system.

At least this part of the Rossi soap opera does not comport with a premeditated fraud to me.

That press release only talks about "intentions to incorporate" - so all we can say for sure is that Rossi has talked to them.

Remember, he's met with all sorts of impressive bodies, but so far nothing concrete has emerged from any of it.

And all of these various meetings can absolutely be seen through the prism of premeditated fraud, as attempts to bolster his credibility just by the mere suggestion of an association with respected institutions and large companies.

Very true! I missed that. No money needed...

[Kahuna]

My guess is that Rossi is terminally optimistic and genuine, in the sense that he has a reality dysfunction which allows him to interpret the many demos as validating his tech, only it needs "tuning". Further, he has little grasp of reality and does not distinguish between what he hopes will happen, and what he says has happened.

If Rossi comes up empty, this makes a lot more sense to me than the premeditated scam allegations. I have been following this thing pretty closely from the beginning and it sure seems like Rossi thinks he has something (or at least did at one point). Those that say they have talked with him, describe a pretty "strange duck" marching to his own drummer. He obviously plays fast and loose with the facts on occasion and is all over the map on claims, plans, partners, designs etc. He obviously could care less about winning skeptics over with well designed and independently verified tests. He appears to be quite paranoid which may or may not be justified. Fun to watch however it somes out.

[tomclarke]

For example, the NASA connection...

It is inconceivable given their pro-CF people that NASA would not be eager to test his stuff, even under black box conditions.

It is inconceivable that Rossi would not boast about any positive tests.

So lack of this is further evidence (if you ever need it) that his devices do not work.

Or that Rossi, as many people before him with less to peddle than they claim, is afraid to put his stuff to the test.

[CKay]

My guess is that Rossi is terminally optimistic and genuine, in the sense that he has a reality dysfunction which allows him to interpret the many demos as validating his tech, only it needs "tuning". Further, he has little grasp of reality and does not distinguish between what he hopes will happen, and what he says has happened.

That doesn't really fit with him claiming to have sold and delivered the 1MW plant and to be manufacturing several more for the same customer.

To believe that, despite it not being true, his grasp of reality would have to be very poor indeed. And then one would wonder how he even manages to dress himself in the mornings.

[tomclarke]

My guess is that Rossi is terminally optimistic and genuine, in the sense that he has a reality dysfunction which allows him to interpret the many demos as validating his tech, only it needs "tuning". Further, he has little grasp of reality and does not distinguish between what he hopes will happen, and what he says has happened.

That doesn't really fit with him claiming to have sold and delivered the 1MW plant and to be manufacturing several more for the same customer.

To believe that, despite it not being true, his grasp of reality would have to be very poor indeed. And then one would wonder how he even manages to dress himself in the mornings.

I do indeed. But you see, to Rossi, "sold" would be having an agreement in principle, and possibly even having delivered some kit for testing. "Manufacturing several more" would be continiing to play with e-cats.

With such a loose grasp on reality any commercial transaction where he accepts money opens him to possible fraud, of course. But does not guarantee that he believes himself a fraudster. It may even be that in private with his donors he is capable of more realism than in his public statements.