The race is on, Polywell vs Focus Fusion

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

MSimon wrote: And yet Polywell is getting funds and FF is begging.

Evidently people with real money to spend have evaluated the chances differently.
If it's really gone from a discussion on scientific merits and experimental performance to how the mob behaves, then you clearly seem to have accepted a move to the 'loosing' side of the argument!!

But neither Lerner nor I wish ill to Polywell. Good for it, if it has found the funding. As Lerner does, let's promote a genuine 'X-prize' for fusion, then we'll see what comes out. At the moment, the only reward is for outright and complete success to deliver power into the grid. It's too big a stretch. There needs to be intermediate motivations. Have a 'World Neutron-Producing Prize' or something. Some 'focus' (excuse the co-incidence) about which and into which funding can drive towards prize money rather than the seemingly unlikely net-power device. It's too far to stretch in one go.

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

chrismb wrote:
Betruger wrote:
chrismb wrote:[...]
Begging for a wager.
...on a race between a dwarf on a penny farthing and a small kid on a pogo stick that's too big for him to compress the spring? Nah! I'll keep my money, for now!!....
Cmon now. Odds are 10:1 that you're right, aren't they?

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

Betruger wrote:Cmon now. Odds are 10:1 that you're right, aren't they?
Yeah, sure, 10:1 that I'm right that neither will show much progress any time soon. I'll bet on that! What is the bet you're thinking of proposing? My only contention here is that DPFs are currently ahead of Polywell. It says nothing of which, if either, will develop a lead over the other at some future stage. I think they'll both get overtaken by a small donkey plodding quietly along...if there is one following them in the same race...

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

chrismb wrote:
MSimon wrote: And yet Polywell is getting funds and FF is begging.

Evidently people with real money to spend have evaluated the chances differently.
If it's really gone from a discussion on scientific merits and experimental performance to how the mob behaves, then you clearly seem to have accepted a move to the 'loosing' side of the argument!!

But neither Lerner nor I wish ill to Polywell. Good for it, if it has found the funding. As Lerner does, let's promote a genuine 'X-prize' for fusion, then we'll see what comes out. At the moment, the only reward is for outright and complete success to deliver power into the grid. It's too big a stretch. There needs to be intermediate motivations. Have a 'World Neutron-Producing Prize' or something. Some 'focus' (excuse the co-incidence) about which and into which funding can drive towards prize money rather than the seemingly unlikely net-power device. It's too far to stretch in one go.
chris,

You are not arguing scientific merits. You are arguing neutrons as if those are the only merits that count.

Besides I'm using money as a proxy for other's evaluation of the scientific merits. Skin in the game and all that. I guess by that measure ITER is judged best. If you believe the 50 year timeline. Not counting delays.

Still. Why can't FF raise a million or two to scale up to the next level?

BTW the ability of Polywell to generate neutrons is not in doubt. What is in doubt is can it generate net power. Your wheeze to the contrary not withstanding.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

MSimon wrote: Still. Why can't FF raise a million or two to scale up to the next level?
I can't speak for FF, but for DPF; it has, it does. it will. It sounds like you are blissfully unaware that Lerner's focus fusion isn't the only DPF in town, and are also unaware of the scientific efforts of DPF over the last 50 years. There's a lot to read up on! Lerner's focus fusion is a direct perpetuation of all that well-funded work, whereas you're clutching at 50 year old experiments that didn't work to try to argue for Polywell.

It may very well be that it is because of DPF's 50 year history without 'breaking-even' that it attracts less funding than the apparently newer Polywell. All else being equal, it looks to me that Polywell is simply earlier in the same 'funding cycle' as DPF, and as Polywell drags on without success, so it will also find its funding flows are downgraded with respect to yet newer ideas. And so the fusion gravy-train will continue, until, perhaps, one day a project may not grind to a halt before everyone gets fed up with funding it [and to everyone's annoyance it works!! Then all those career fusion research scientists are out of a job!] Could that be Polywell? Betruger, what odds are you offering?

Torulf2
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Post by Torulf2 »

Funding is not much endurance, exception for the tokomak.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

There's a lot to read up on! Lerner's focus fusion is a direct perpetuation of all that well-funded work, whereas you're clutching at 50 year old experiments that didn't work to try to argue for Polywell.
I'm surprised to learn that WB-6, WB-7, and WB-8 happened 50 years ago. Do you have a link?

And to say the experiments of 50 years ago didn't produce neutrons (your criteria of success) is another surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_plasma_focus
This DPF network was organised by Sing Lee from 1986, taking advantage of the fact that even a small DPF can be used to study all the plasma phenomena that a big DPF has access to. A simulation package, the Lee Model,[8] has been developed for this network but is applicable to all plasma focus devices. The code typically produces excellent agreement between computed and measured results,[9] and is available for downloading as a Universal Plasma Focus Laboratory Facility. The Institute for Plasma Focus Studies IPFS[10] was founded on 25 February 2008 to promote correct and innovative use of the Lee Model code and to encourage the application of plasma focus numerical experiments. IPFS research has already extended numerically-derived neutron scaling laws to multi-megajoule experiments.[11] These await verification.
Lots of experiments. A paucity of results.
Several groups have claimed the DPF could prove viable for fusion power, even producing temperatures high enough for p+B11 fusion and that the powerful magnetic field can reduce electron-ion collisions and thus reduce bremsstrahlung losses; in contrast, the high magnetic field is theorised to aggravate cyclotron radiation losses. Another advantage claimed is the capability of direct conversion of the energy of the fusion products into electricity, with an efficiency potentially above 70%. So far only limited experiments and computer simulations have been done to investigate the capability of DPF for fusion power. Eric Lerner's approach to fusion power using the DPF, termed "Focus Fusion", was explained in 2007 at Google's Tech Talks.[12] On November 14, 2008, Lerner received funding for continued research, to test the scientific feasibility of Focus Fusion.[13]
And yet. These devices are rather easier to build than a Polywell, but have so far not shown evidence of net power.

This is surprising given:
The fact that the plasma energy density is constant throughout the range of plasma focus devices, from big to small, is related to the value of a design parameter that needs to be kept at a certain value if the plasma focus is to operate efficiently. The critical 'speed' design parameter is {{I \over a} \over \sqrt{p}}, or the current linear density divided by the square root of the mass density of the fill gas.[5]

For example for neutron-optimised operation in deuterium the value of this critical parameter, experimentally observed over a range of machines from kilojoules to hundreds of kilojoules, is: 90 (kA/cm)/(Torr)1/2 (780 kA/(m·Pa1/2)) with a remarkably small deviation of 10% over such a large range of sizes of machines.

Thus if we have a peak current of 180 kA we require an anode radius of 1 cm with a deuterium fill pressure of 4 torrs. The length of the anode has then to be matched to the risetime of the capacitor current in order to allow an average axial transit speed of the current sheath of just over 5 cm/microsec. Thus a capacitor risetime of 3 microsecond requires a matched anode length of 16 cm.
So the possibility of net power should be demonstratable on a table top with very modest eqpt requirements and modest vacuum pumps. It is going on past 20 years for this line. Where is the beef?

I will grant that none of the experiments to date looks very good. Not Toks. Not DPF. Not Polywell.

Still I'd say that Polywell was the most promising of the approaches. If for no other reason that that it is the least explored in its present form.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

chrismb wrote: Makes 26,000 look like chicken sh*t, doesn't it??
I may regret asking this, but where the heck do you get 26,000?

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

chrismb wrote:
Betruger wrote:Cmon now. Odds are 10:1 that you're right, aren't they?
Yeah, sure, 10:1 that I'm right that neither will show much progress any time soon. I'll bet on that! What is the bet you're thinking of proposing? My only contention here is that DPFs are currently ahead of Polywell. It says nothing of which, if either, will develop a lead over the other at some future stage. I think they'll both get overtaken by a small donkey plodding quietly along...if there is one following them in the same race...
Waffling :) You said 10%; are you reconsidering? It seems like a clear enough stance. Loser donates some token sum (say 50 bucks) to EMC2/whatever organism takes donations for ITER.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

Betruger wrote: You said 10%; are you reconsidering?
I said 10% for credibility [on my own personal rating scale], not viability.

But if you're taking 10:1 odds on Polywell reaching break-even, yeah, sure, where do I sign?? I'd be over the moon either way - if I pay you $1,000 but we've ended up with fusion power OR if I win $10,000 off you, either is good for me! (You might be a bit down in the dumps with the latter outcome, though!)

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

KitemanSA wrote:
chrismb wrote: Makes 26,000 look like chicken sh*t, doesn't it??
I may regret asking this, but where the heck do you get 26,000?
Do a search. It's there somewhere and was, I am told, the conversion for those 3 clicks of the neutron detector.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

MSimon wrote:
There's a lot to read up on! Lerner's focus fusion is a direct perpetuation of all that well-funded work, whereas you're clutching at 50 year old experiments that didn't work to try to argue for Polywell.
I'm surprised to learn that WB-6, WB-7, and WB-8 happened 50 years ago. Do you have a link?
yeah, look up 'Farnsworth', the experiment you keep on quoting as justifying evidence for Polywell.
MSimon wrote:...&c., &c.
Great! You know how to access wikipedia!

Now try one of those links to the DPF network wiki gives you, and download some Conference papers.
MSimon wrote:I will grant that none of the experiments to date looks very good. Not Toks. Not DPF. Not Polywell.
Indeed.
MSimon wrote:Still I'd say that Polywell was the most promising of the approaches. If for no other reason that that it is the least explored in its present form.
Again with the future tense [OK, you've modified it slightly to be a 'past imperfect future' tense now!]. Topic subject line is present tense.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

I surrender. As of yesterday neither DPF, nor Toks, nor Polywell have delivered power to the grid. As far as we know DPF makes lots of neutrons. Polywell data is embargoed. The US Navy continues funding of further Polywell research. They have no corresponding DPF research.

Lots of "promising" work going on in DPF. What it is promising may not be entirely what you are hoping. See new thread on DPF and Proliferation.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

Chrismb wrote: and as Polywell drags on without success, so it will also find its funding flows are downgraded with respect to yet newer ideas.
I was under the impression that there were some theoretical predictions, that maybe make unwarranted assumptions. And there are a set of tests which test these. I guess we don't know how successful WB7 was, but enough for some more comprehensive tests.

I can't see much "dragging on without success" since the experimental data is likely to clarify things. It only "drags on" if small-scale or pulse stuff is successful in which case bigger better tests are still needed (which may fail).

Or, if you define "lack of success" as no net power, that hardly seems fair, when the experiments done are known not to approach this, and nothing except lack of money to stop a large-scale experiment which could (just possibly) have net power.

I think it is sensible to scale the experiments up in stages, but the process resembles "sudden death" if at any stage things don't work, rather than dragging on?

Tom

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

It's very hard to see how DPFs get to an electrode that can do 1000 pulses a second at 100MW net power for a year (complete with gigagauss B fields preventing x-ray cooling) within a reasonable time frame at reasonable expense. It's hard to see how we even get any answers on this problem anytime soon.

It's very hard to see how tokamaks get to... well, no one even expects them to get to economic power within 50 years. Scratch them off the list.

It's pretty easy to see a path to economic power for FRCs and Polywell. We'll shortly have a pretty good idea of what WB loss scaling with B looks like, which is the major issue. We haven't seen much data from FRCs lately, but like Polywell they have decent theory behind them and Paul Allen's Tri-Alpha guys are pretty serious.

This is why Polywell is the best shot right now, with the possible exception of FRC. It's one of the few paths that doesn't have known insurmountable obstacles.

Polywell also has the distinction, as of summer 2009, of being the only fusion approach with a contract for a net-power device.

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