10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[paperburn1]

That is one thing we can agree on, only time will tell who was right about this.

[ScottL]

3 years later and we're still waiting. At some point you have to cut them off.

[parallel]

ScottL

3 years later and we're still waiting. At some point you have to cut them off.

Should we therefore assume you're also in favor of ending work on the Polywell, the National Ignition Facility, ITER, LDX (USA), HiPER (Europe), Z-IFE (USA), General Fusion (Canada), Lawrenceville Plasma Physics (USA), FRX-L (USA), Wendelstein 7-X (Germany), Sonofusion (USA), Brillouin, Focus Fusion, not to mention a supersonic airliner. Really the list is almost endless.

Or, should we assume you are being a troll as usual with your sparkling, original comment?

[JoeP]

ScottL

3 years later and we're still waiting. At some point you have to cut them off.

Should we therefore assume you're also in favor of ending work on the Polywell, the National Ignition Facility, ITER, LDX (USA), HiPER (Europe), Z-IFE (USA), General Fusion (Canada), Lawrenceville Plasma Physics (USA), FRX-L (USA), Wendelstein 7-X (Germany), Sonofusion (USA), Brillouin, Focus Fusion, not to mention a supersonic airliner. Really the list is almost endless.

Or, should we assume you are being a troll as usual with your sparkling, original comment?

The key difference is that the E-Cat's function appears to be an easily exploitable and relatively inexpensive implementation, that gives off a lot of energy when compared to input -- in contrast to most of the other examples you listed in the current state (2013).

Given a few more years and if there hasn't been any substantial product, or even a prototype that is openly tested, it is probably safe to say that these efforts are not commercially exploitable -- they are either unreliable or simply not a source of useful energy.

[parallel]

appears to be an easily exploitable and relatively inexpensive implementation,

It is clearly not as easy as it looks. Many people have failed to get it to work at all. The control is difficult as the reaction tends to increase with increasing temperature, so with Rossi's method it requires short bursts of input energy. Probably the main thing holding back commercial release now is the need to do extended testing, something that inevitably takes time. You can't get a UL certificate for something this novel without a lot more experience in the field. It's coming, just be patient.

As Rossi says:
"I sympathize with you, but our policy is not to talk until the tests of validation will have been finished.
Whatever the results, positive or negative, we will share them with the scientific world."

[ScottL]

ScottL

3 years later and we're still waiting. At some point you have to cut them off.

Should we therefore assume you're also in favor of ending work on the Polywell, the National Ignition Facility, ITER, LDX (USA), HiPER (Europe), Z-IFE (USA), General Fusion (Canada), Lawrenceville Plasma Physics (USA), FRX-L (USA), Wendelstein 7-X (Germany), Sonofusion (USA), Brillouin, Focus Fusion, not to mention a supersonic airliner. Really the list is almost endless.

Or, should we assume you are being a troll as usual with your sparkling, original comment?

The Setup:
I fail to see any trolling. Rossi and EMC2 are apples and oranges, but I'll explain for the feeble minded that may peruse the board every month or so. EMC2's only claims to date are that they form a wiffle-ball effect and a virtual cathode, both having been proven via scientific board as well as partial reproduction. EMC2 has never stated, nor do I think they ever will state until it actually happens, that they will produce energy. They have opined that following their current route of research, energy produced via fusion could happen, but not that it will happen. Rossi, on the other hand has stated that he has created energy via LENR, not that his route might create, but that definitively has created energy.

Reiteration:
Rossi : Claims to have an LENR method of energy production.
EMC2 : Claims to have a wiffle-ball effect with virtual cathode.

Rossi's claims have yet to be confirmed independently as assumingly so, he isn't revealing his secrets. Keyword "yet to confirm"
EMC2's claims have been confirmed via national review committee, increased funding, and partial replication at 3rd party labs. Keyword(s) "have been confirmed"

To put it in an analogy that hopefully fits, although admittedly I can be bad at them sometimes. Consider the 2 parties running a marathon. Rossi is claiming to not only be able to run the marathon, but that he has already done so under the cover of darkness. EMC2 is claiming they can run a quarter of the marathon and have confirmed it with the judges at the quarter marker.

Any who, Rossi stated he's be mass producing by now. So where are the units on the shelves already?

[parallel]

Any who, Rossi stated he's be mass producing by now. So where are the units on the shelves already?

That's why you are a troll. You never get the facts right to the point where it must be deliberate. Unless you are really stupid.
Rossi has never said he has started mass production, indeed has never claimed the automated factory his partner is building has been finished.
Further, Rossi has said domestic units won't be available until he gets certification.
Also, that you can now buy a 1 MW plant. So if you want one go ahead and order it.

[Skipjack]

Meanwhile, the only real independent attempt at reproducing the abnormal heat has been going on for 1 year.
Abnormal heat detected to date: 0

http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/de/follow/follow-2

[parallel]

SKipjack,
What proof do you have that is the ONLY REAL independent test going on?
Sounds like a variation of Tom's Law. "Any evidence of anomalous heat is proof of measurement error."

[Stubby]

He doesn't have to prove anything.
The burden of proof that the ecat is working as specified belongs to the people making the claim that it is working as specified.
A completely independent 3rd party test has never been done.
The only real 3rd party test's methodology was flawed and the whole test was set up and controlled by Rossi et al.

[D Tibbets]

I try to avoid this fantasy discussion, but occasionally I breakdown. First, Rossi has repeatedly been shown to be a fraud, in the past and with current claims. And, yes , he has claimed to have produced and shipped operational units. He back tracked or was silent when this was proved wrong. The most glaring example is the "1 MW" plant in a shipping container that was supposedly moved to a costomer, but was shown to have remained in one place. Heat production claims have been strongly proven to be out right lies or at best extreme misrepresentations. The thin streams of steam from a hose is totally meaningless. As has been shown repeatedly, simple heating on a stove of a pot with equivalent watt input produces as much or more steam. The calorimetry is meaningless as has again been pointed out repeatedly. Most damning is that the claims are that a lot of excess heat generated. It would be extremely easy to demonstrate this with simple calorimetry. Heat some water and measure the temperature increase. The phase shift to steam is not good, as it is complicating the issue and as demonstrated, is very easy to distort.

LENER in general is an intriguing field of research. To my knowledge, excess heat claims are ambiguous at best, but at least the difficulty of detecting modest heat gains are difficult. Rossi does not have this dodge. Also, generally LENER attempts employs deuterium. Rossi's plain hydrogen "fuel" typically fuses at a rate ~ 10^20 times slower than deuterium. If Rossi is right then all other LENER efforts should be producing fusion rates that is enormous.


Polywell or any other hot fusion process all employ straight forward accepted physics. Hot fusion is simple. Actually room temperature fusion is also simple. It happens, just exceedingly rarely. If you have a bottle of heavy water on the shelf, fusion will occur. You might have to wait a few dozen billion years for each occurance, but statistically it will occur.
The question for hot fusion is not whether you can produce fusion, even a lot of fusion, but if you can do so at energy densities that is useful and that results in more energy out than you put in.
For typical LENER (cold fusion) the questions are the same and added to this is the baseline critical demonstration of ongoing fusion AND heat production, both is a challenge for LENER researchers- except for Rossi of course, if you accept his claims- again the magnitude of his claims implies a ridiculous ease of testing with honest, easy, and well accepted calorimetry- which he has not demonstrated.

You can generate excess heat from any number of sources- chemical and nuclear. If you ignore the energy costs of the ingredients then profitable heat/ energy is generated. An example would be coal. A generic nuclear example would be to take a deuterium atom and a neutron, both at room temperature. A tritium could result and this decays with a half life of 12 years and produces excess energy in the form of a high energy (hot) beta particle. This could provide useful energy. But this 'battery' is not an energy source because the energy cost of obtaining the neutron cost more than the energy in the beta particle. Where do you get the neutron, perhaps from plutonium, but the plutonium was made at the cost of energy. The point that I am getting to is that there are no sources of free energy . Fusion of light elements may come close, but if you consider the quark soup that they were earlier the energy flow is down hill- entropy. The only reason that we (or stars) can generate local heat is that this entropy process has bumps where some intermediates can be fairly stable- and thus harvestable. The only perhaps energy producing process that I know of is the Big Bang and even that depends on a vacuum quantum field that contains an even greater amount of energy. But where does that come from. There is no answer, there is no beginning.

Backing up, nuclear fission reactors produce a lot of useful energy. But that energy was stored earlier by energy costing nucleosynthes is old massive stars. This local concentration of energy is well understood. That is why Nickel 62 is accepted as the end point for any exothermic nuclear process involving the interplay of the Strong force, the Weak force and the Electromagnetic force, along with the Pauly exclusion principle, and several other considerations. Sticking a hydrogen nucleus (proton)onto a Nickel 62 nucleus costs energy. If the Copper 63 nucleus is excited in the process or is otherwise unstable some energy may be released, but not as much as was required to make it from the nickel 62 and a proton. If you use ingredients further away from nickel 62 (like a proton an iron 56 you might have an exothermic result) but the Nickel 62- copper 63 does not have any room for uncertainity. Yes you xould have an excited isomer of copper63 as an intermediate, but this does not change the beginning and ending energy balance.This is why Rossi's original claim of this reaction makes no sense. It not only requires new physics, but abandonment of well accepted physics. Additional problems of his magical claims of nickel isotope purification and measured quantities of copper isotopes have apparently led to abandonment of this weak description.

Dan Tibbets

[ScottL]

Any who, Rossi stated he's be mass producing by now. So where are the units on the shelves already?

That's why you are a troll. You never get the facts right to the point where it must be deliberate. Unless you are really stupid.
Rossi has never said he has started mass production, indeed has never claimed the automated factory his partner is building has been finished.
Further, Rossi has said domestic units won't be available until he gets certification.
Also, that you can now buy a 1 MW plant. So if you want one go ahead and order it.

Once again, you have proven yourself an emotional mess who must always resort to name-calling at the slightest counter of your ideals. I've stated facts and interesting questions. I have made more than adequate comparisons and analogies, yet you continue to ignore all reason and proceed with your froth-mouthed rants. You continue to show your inability to construct logical, fact-based arguments, always running in with a half-witted emotional response, often spewing technical gobbledygook not even understand the terms you're using. Well, I hate to break it to you, but it is documented repeatedly that Rossi has stated he has a factory and that it is (or was) in operation. Of course, he back tracked on those comments after it was pointed out he'd need licensing. He's also set deadlines for mass production repeatedly over the last 2 years with nary a device in sight. No sir (or ma'am), it is you that are a troll. You are trolled by your own emotional attachment to this con man and his snake oil contraption. You neither deserve nor will garner any of my further attention, but will receive all of my pity. We speak of open-mindedness within the field, well there is being open-minded and there's drinking the Kool-Aid. I fear you have drank the entire pitcher.

[parallel]

ScottL

Any who, Rossi stated he's be mass producing by now. So where are the units on the shelves already?

You got both "facts" wrong. No amount of waffle will alter that.

[Skipjack]

SKipjack,
What proof do you have that is the ONLY REAL independent test going on?
Sounds like a variation of Tom's Law. "Any evidence of anomalous heat is proof of measurement error."

It is the only one that I have evidence for.

[Axil]

Let us compare Rossi against ITER, who is the biggest swindler. Rossi used his own money, ITER use public money. A few million for Rossi compared to 50 billion for ITER. ITER will never work, so why not pull its plug?