10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[polyill]

@Joseph Chikva

Oh, well... Look at you, defending yourself already...

Anyway, "adequate" is the word, Joseph. I suggest you make yourself familiar with the concept of adequacy and review your posting strategy in the light of your findings. Although I suspect it's several tens of years too late for that. "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" they say.

Just to make sure you grasp it - my messages were never meant to be welcomed by you, they were meant as a slap, which obviously landed, and now you just can't get over it. I think it's time we go back to PM, if you insists on trying to get back at me.

Back to the stated issue, it is "less interesting" for YOU. "It's enough" for YOU again. My interests are a bit wider. In particular, I am interested in pointing out the procrastination in discussing again and again the obvious luck of technical evidence and neglecting the other angles on the issue, e.g. who presents, why, how and in what context. If it is not of interest to you, you're welcome to abstain from commenting on those issues. Unless you are a troll.

I again want to remind you: this tread is in the News section, and as such is not capped to technical discussions only (which discussions, again, are empty, due to obvious luck of technical data one can discuss meaningfully).

[parallel]

sparkyy0007

You used these cheap junk non-isolated thermocouples to instrument a plant!!??.
Must have been some plant
Laughing
And monitored it with hand-held thermometers Laughing Laughing

I would expect you to make these idiotic assumptions. It would have been difficult to measure 1500-1600C in a hostile environment with cheap hand held instruments. Yes, we used some inexpensive hand held instruments too, to check on things at low temperatures and measure intermediate points between fixed thrmocouples. But of course you always know better than the people actually there doing the measurements don't you.
The instrument in question can be found here: http://www.esis.com.au/Testo/Testo175-177brochure.pdf
The positional error due to contact would have been negligible in my opinion.

Like others here, you seem to be determined to show LENR doesn't exist. The fact remains the results of the October test, producing heat with temperatures that didn't get lower over nearly four hours, that can only be explained by LENR or some super ingenious microwave projector. Something that sounds even more unlikely than LENR.
Early criticisms were that more power was being applied than reported, but this has disappeared with the E-Cat working without power. Others have proposed thermal inertia, but that doesn't work for the quantity of heat required and because the temperatures do not steadily decrease with the power turned off. ee-tom can't add apparently and thinks the heat input exceeds the output. There isn't much left except to claim all the measurements were wrong.

[Joseph Chikva]

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks" they say.

"Do not teach father how to love your mother" say others.

[stefanbanev]

sparkyy0007

From your polite response it is obvious you have no experience with cheap multi-channel thermometers.
I have no interest in educating you on the particulars and limitations of these instruments.

You are quite wrong (again.) Apart from many more years of experience than you in an industry that relied on temperature measurements, I once instrumented a whole plant to find out what was happening in detail. This involved measuring more than a 1000 different temperatures every three minutes for months.
You don't know what you are talking about.

You used these cheap junk non-isolated thermocouples to instrument a plant!!??.
Must have been some plant

And monitored it with hand-held thermometers
Got any pictures?

Apart from many more years of experience than you

And how the hell would you know that.

Dear sparkyy0007,

I did not follow the technical issues/details you've pointed out; besides, I have no sufficient expertise with thermocouples. May you summarize the possible effects of these issues; how it could effect the Energy out/in ratio through all run, may you assess the ranges as non-favorable to e-cat and also favorable as well.

Thanks

[Giorgio]

There isn't much left except to claim all the measurements were wrong.

Well, you can't claim either that all the measurements were correct.
In truth this experiment was yet another confusionary mess born from the mind of a person not used to deal with thermal measurements.

This is something so clear that I really hope that you are not trying to defend him on this point.

That apart, I pointed you to an issue that could invalidate completely the collected data, but I didn't hear your opinion on it.

[polyill]

There isn't much left except to claim all the measurements were wrong.

Sheesh, parallel... You claim all the measurements were right, despite the obvious setbacks in the discussed setup (once again), and the luck of scientific rigor of the presenter.

[sparkyy0007]

sparkyy0007

You used these cheap junk non-isolated thermocouples to instrument a plant!!??.
Must have been some plant
Laughing
And monitored it with hand-held thermometers Laughing Laughing

I would expect you to make these idiotic assumptions. It would have been difficult to measure 1500-1600C in a hostile environment with cheap hand held instruments. Yes, we used some inexpensive hand held instruments too, to check on things at low temperatures. But of course you always know better than the people actually there doing the measurements don't you.
The instrument in question can be found here: http://www.esis.com.au/Testo/Testo175-177brochure.pdf
The positional error due to contact would have been negligible in my opinion.

Like others here, you seem to be determined to show LENR doesn't exist. The fact remains the results of the October test, producing heat with temperatures that didn't get lower over nearly four hours, that can only be explained by LENR or some super ingenious microwave projector. Something that sounds even more unlikely than LENR.
Early criticisms were that more power was being applied than reported, but this has disappeared with the E-Cat working without power. Others have proposed thermal inertia, but that doesn't work for the quantity of heat required and because the temperatures do not steadily decrease with the power turned off. ee-tom can't add apparently and thinks the heat input exceeds the output. There isn't much left except to claim all the measurements were wrong.

Look, parallel I have designed specialized temperature measurement systems
for 3200, that's right 3200 C inert gas furnaces. I also designed the furnace. I am not looking for a fight
but every time someone points out obvious or possible deficiencies to try to make sense of this mess,
you jump on their backs with rudeness and insults. This forum is a scientific discussion and impolite or rude attacks are not justified.
Let's just discuss the facts and leave the BS out, shall we?

[polyill]

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks" they say.

"Do not teach father how to love your mother" say others.

Obviously, all you have is your "glorious" past... you're pathetic.

[Joseph Chikva]

Obviously, all you have is your "glorious" past... you're pathetic.

May be I am pathetic and have all in past but any way please do not send me private message in the future.
As they will not be welcomed. If you wish to say something you can post in forum. That's all.
Thanks.

[Giorgio]

Dear sparkyy0007,

I did not follow the technical issues/details you've pointed out; besides, I have no sufficient expertise with thermocouples. May you summarize the possible effects of these issues; how it could effect the Energy out/in ratio through all run, may you assess the ranges as non-favorable to e-cat and also favorable as well.

Thanks

The tip of a thermocouple is just (as the name indicates) a bare wire junction.
If the tip is at ground where it is measuring temperature, and if that ground is at a different potential from the ground at the measuring end of the thermocouple than a secondary ground loop is formed and there will be a current flow.
Same holds true if you connect more than one thermocouple to the same instrument and they do not have a common ground value.

The solution is to use a shielded thermocouple as sparkyy0007 suggests.

To get a grip of what dimensions we are talking about here, a 1 Degree indication normally corresponds to a 5uV (that is microVolts) difference measured between the two metals.

The formation of a secondary ground can have a profound impact on the measured value.

[parallel]

Giorgio,
There are several things I would have done differently, but it was not my call. I think Rossi demonstrated LENR beyond reasonable doubt, although there is doubt about the amount of heat. I also tend to believe him when he says the E-Cat was "turned down" for safety reasons. Time will tell just what is the performance of the current "modules."

I missed your definitive proof that invalidated all the measurements. Please point me to it.

[Joseph Chikva]

Giorgio,
There are several things I would have done differently, but it was not my call. I think Rossi demonstrated LENR beyond reasonable doubt, although there is doubt about the amount of heat. I also tend to believe him when he says the E-Cat was "turned down" for safety reasons. Time will tell just what is the performance of the current "modules."

I missed your definitive proof that invalidated all the measurements. Please point me to it.

Parallel
It is interesting for me does device produce radiation? Or no?

[parallel]

sparkyy0007,
I doubt you were using a thermocouple to measure 3200C (I was using platinum-rhodium/platinum-rhodium for 1600C)
I'm more than happy to just discuss the facts. I thought you were straying away from that, but perhaps that was not your intention.

[Giorgio]

Giorgio,
There are several things I would have done differently, but it was not my call. I think Rossi demonstrated LENR beyond reasonable doubt, although there is doubt about the amount of heat. I also tend to believe him when he says the E-Cat was "turned down" for safety reasons. Time will tell just what is the performance of the current "modules."

I missed your definitive proof that invalidated all the measurements. Please point me to it.

What he didn't think of (but which can make a big difference) is that the collector will not only have a temperature gradient over his body, but will also radiate large amount of heat from the 120C side. This heat will be trapped under the insulator, but than, the sensor is under the same insulator at few cm of distance.......
If this heat source makes up for 1 Degree of the measured dT, than it will be a whopping 20% decrease in the theoretical Thermal out.
If it makes 2 or more degrees.... well you got the idea.

[parallel]

Joseph Chikva

It is interesting for me does device produce radiation? Or no?

Externally no. Internally I don't know. Rossi says it does.