10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[Ivy Matt]

Well, if Rossi and Focardi are the Wright brothers, I hope it won't be too long before an Alberto Santos-Dumont comes along to force their hand.

[Giorgio]

Bottom line, sleazy scammers (e.g., BLP?) cause harm but the far greater harm comes from sleazy deniers and the fellow travelers of same...

Honestly, to become a denier you need to have some real indications that this machine is actually working as claimed. Once you have that you can deny it.
Point is that until now I have seen no real data that is giving credibility to these claims.

I pointed to a real issue here. A 100% difference in COP between two identical trials simply by checking to water mass flow.
I didn't see anyone of the people supporting the E-cat commenting on this.

This is a scientific forum and if you want to support your claims you need to bring real data, not nice words.

[Betruger]

Giorgio's been anything but sleazy.

[Giorgio]

"Nullius in Verba"

You actually made me think to another very nice expression:
Quod volumus, facile credimus!

It's easy to believe what we want to believe.

[KitemanSA]

I pointed to a real issue here. A 100% difference in COP between two identical trials simply by checking to water mass flow.
I didn't see anyone of the people supporting the E-cat commenting on this.

First, I don't recall anyone asking him about it. Why don't you?
Second, the two experiments were conducted with different machines at TWO DIFFERENT TEMPERATURES. IIRC, temperature is one of the factors in the reaction rate. Hotter = faster, to a point. ICBW. I am just a semi-interested bystander.

[Giorgio]

I pointed to a real issue here. A 100% difference in COP between two identical trials simply by checking to water mass flow.
I didn't see anyone of the people supporting the E-cat commenting on this.

First, I don't recall anyone asking him about it. Why don't you?

I will, I am getting ready the details to post on his website.
The point here was just to show how quickly the numbers can change when you switch from an "estimated" value to a "measured" value.
Sadly very few seems to care anymore about these details.

Second, the two experiments were conducted with different machines at TWO DIFFERENT TEMPERATURES. IIRC, temperature is one of the factors in the reaction rate. Hotter = faster, to a point. ICBW. I am just a semi-interested bystander.

No, those three experiments were all done with the small 50 cm3 E-Cat. It is clearly written in each of the 3 reports.
Temperatures for water inlet and outlet were the same and the heater was the same 300 W module. I do not get to what different temperatures you are referring.

[Skipjack]

Via Next Big Future:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/05/rossi- ... lyzer.html

Seems like Rossi is giving in and lets the two universities conduct independent testing of his device. The question is how deep and freely they will be allowed to probe the thing. Still, I would be pretty much convinced if these two confirmed his claims, provided they dont fail as terribly as previous observers did with their test- setup and scientific method.

[parallel]

So, what is wrong with Ni Teknik's trials?

Well, an amp meter is useful for measuring current, but it tells you nothing about the power (Watts) unless you also include the Volts.
A step up transformer could be in the control box. If the step up was 10X, the same power through the wire to the 'reactor' wold have 10X less current, but 10X greater voltage. In the reactor a small step down transformer could provide more heating amps to a resister, and the small transformer inefficiency wouldn't hurt as that also would produce heat. Again the thermometer can be calibrated to within 1 millionth of a degree, but it means little if you don't know how heat is flowing inside the machine. Apparently these machines output some steam and a little water, with presumably a modest water inflow. They assumed this output liquid water was condensed, but without looking inside they couldn't know whether this was bypassed water. And if the water flow was modest, it wouldn't take much bypass to suggest much larger heating power output.
Some water dripping out and some steam escaping into the air that is not measured for temperature and mass means there is no real measurement of total heat output.

Even my cursory consideration reveals 2-3 different aspects that could allow for large manipulation of the claimed results.


[EDIT] Actually, with the stepped up voltage, no subsequent step down transformer would be needed, just an adjustment in the Ohmic resistance of the resister- either the obvious one outside the pipe or one inside.

My argument about the Amp measurements and the absent Volt measurements is based on the assumption that they claim the input volts equals line voltage,. That needs to be confirmed before anything else, and does not require $300 of calorimetry equipment, but only an under $10 Voltmeter.

Dan Tibbets

Why don't you read the reports before making your comments?

"I personally did measurements: weighing water and hydrogen, measuring current and voltage, checking water flow at output, checking vapor flow," Lewan said.

[Giorgio]

Still, I would be pretty much convinced if these two confirmed his claims, provided they dont fail as terribly as previous observers did with their test- setup and scientific method.

I second that.
The way to test this apparatus is so silly that is a shame that it has not been done yet in a proper way.

[Kahuna]

Here is some confirmation at Next Big Future that some E-Cats are on their way to the University of Uppsala and the University of Stockholm for extended testing.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/05/rossi- ... lyzer.html

Also an article in PESN on the most recent NyTeknik testing by Mats Lewan can be found here:

http://pesn.com/2011/05/02/9501822_NyTe ... Catalyzer/

The New Energy Times also has a piece on the Lewen tests here:

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/ ... ates.shtml

Here are the reports on the two tests conducted by NyTekNik:

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... l+2011.pdf
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article ... l+2011.pdf

I don't know if Girorgio has been able to contact Professors Essen and Kullander in Sweden to make his suggestions on a "proper" E-Cat test setup, but it might be worth the effort as others have said they got responses from inquiries to them.

[Tech]

Here is some confirmation at Next Big Future that some E-Cats are on their way to the University of Uppsala and the University of Stockholm for extended testing.

I read somewhere at Rossi´s site http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com that he will send the e-cats to those Universities but it will be in october after the start of the 1 MW plant.

[Giorgio]

I don't know if Girorgio has been able to contact Professors Essen and Kullander in Sweden to make his suggestions on a "proper" E-Cat test setup, but it might be worth the effort as others have said they got responses from inquiries to them.

I sent them an e-mail on the 17th. Didn't get a reply.
I will send them another one today.

[Kahuna]

I don't know if Girorgio has been able to contact Professors Essen and Kullander in Sweden to make his suggestions on a "proper" E-Cat test setup, but it might be worth the effort as others have said they got responses from inquiries to them.

I sent them an e-mail on the 17th. Didn't get a reply.
I will send them another one today.

VG, Giorgio, I hope you get some kind of response.

FWIW, I will go out on a limb and say that I definately don't think we have a scam here. Rossi would have to have a professional death wish to parade the E-Cat in front of all these academics and professional skeptics. The observers would also suffer professional humiliation if they were found to have been "taken in" by a Rossi fraud.

That being said, it is still very possible that the E-Cat will not turn out to be what Rossi claims. This would not be the first time that a well intentioned and sincere inventor/scientist got caught up in his own apparent success and succumed to self-delusions.

However, each of these tests (while not perfect), seems to get better than previous ones in some meaningful respects and tips the scales more in the direction of Rossi really having something novel here.

[Skipjack]

Here is some confirmation at Next Big Future that some E-Cats are on their way to the University of Uppsala and the University of Stockholm for extended testing.

You are late, look two posts further up

[Kahuna]

Here is some confirmation at Next Big Future that some E-Cats are on their way to the University of Uppsala and the University of Stockholm for extended testing.

You are late, look two posts further up

Indeed I am. Sorry for the duplication.