Woodward-Mach Effect

[kurt9]

I splurged earlier this year and bought the "Frontiers of Propulsion Science" book. There are lots of concepts for breakthrough propulsion, but they seem to fall into three categories. Of all of them, the Woodward-Mach effect seems the most viable, if any propulsion breakthrough is possible (it might not, you know).

My impression is that the Woodward-Mach effect could result in a "space drive" but not FTL. It wasn't until the recent discussion of wormholes this past year that there was any mention of FTL at all in connection with Woodward-Mach effect.

Hopefully Dr. Woodward and Paul March can demonstrate these effect as real by the end of this year. I have contact with people developing dielectric materials for MEMS and ultra-capacitor applications. These people are developing dielectric materials they say are better than TiBaO3 (higher dielectric constant, less leakage, better mechanical stability, etc.) that may be useful for Woodward-Mach effect product development.

A space drive, even one that is strictly sub-light, would be a game changer in opening up the solar system to human settlement, O'niell space colony style.

Besides, the real market, in money value, for Woodward-Mach effect is conventional transportation (cars, railroads, planes, ships) rather than space transportation.

[chrismb]

I splurged earlier this year and bought the "Frontiers of Propulsion Science" book. There are lots of concepts for breakthrough propulsion, but they seem to fall into three categories. Of all of them, the Woodward-Mach effect seems the most viable, if any propulsion breakthrough is possible (it might not, you know).

Holy shoot the crap out of the chicken! What the heck were the others like, if M-E seemed the most viable!!!

[Nik]

IIRC, this device 'works' by using the macroscopic difference in mass between a charged and un-charged capacitor.

Given E=Mc^2, even a tonne of super-capacitors would have a minimal mass-energy difference: I'm not surprised that different workers have had contradictory results...

OT: What was the name of the proposed 'Drive' that used EM standing waves in a sealed, resonant horn ? Last time I looked, the for/against theorists were at the 'cat fight' stage...

[chrismb]

EM drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive

Not read this page but seems to link to other 'reactionless drives'.

Just like the flawed ME experiments so far, EM also draws power from a stationary plug in the stationary wall. Any clues in my description of the experimental set-up?

[Diogenes]

IIRC, this device 'works' by using the macroscopic difference in mass between a charged and un-charged capacitor.

Given E=Mc^2, even a tonne of super-capacitors would have a minimal mass-energy difference: I'm not surprised that different workers have had contradictory results...

OT: What was the name of the proposed 'Drive' that used EM standing waves in a sealed, resonant horn ? Last time I looked, the for/against theorists were at the 'cat fight' stage...

http://www.emdrive.com/

[Giorgio]

OT: What was the name of the proposed 'Drive' that used EM standing waves in a sealed, resonant horn ? Last time I looked, the for/against theorists were at the 'cat fight' stage...

Last news was that some Chinese researchers took over the development, but they probably didn't reach anything as I never heard again about that collaboration.

[GIThruster]

IIRC, this device 'works' by using the macroscopic difference in mass between a charged and un-charged capacitor.

Actually it's more complex than that. Mach Effects happen at the 2w, so conventional arguments like this don't connect either with theory, nor with observation.

[GIThruster]

I have contact with people developing dielectric materials for MEMS and ultra-capacitor applications. These people are developing dielectric materials they say are better than TiBaO3 (higher dielectric constant, less leakage, better mechanical stability, etc.) that may be useful for Woodward-Mach effect product development.

They certainly might. I track developments in capacitor materials all the time and if you have any info you can share on this I'd appreciate it. Do you know for instance, if these are piezo-electric ceramics, what their k value is, etc.?

[GIThruster]

I splurged earlier this year and bought the "Frontiers of Propulsion Science" book. There are lots of concepts for breakthrough propulsion, but they seem to fall into three categories. Of all of them, the Woodward-Mach effect seems the most viable, if any propulsion breakthrough is possible (it might not, you know).

Holy shoot the crap out of the chicken! What the heck were the others like, if M-E seemed the most viable!!!

Just FYI, Chris; but when Lock-Mart did their Millenial Study and surveyed all the proposed propulsion physics they could gather, they likewise found as did Kurt, that the Woodward stuff is the most viable.

[kurt9]

I have contact with people developing dielectric materials for MEMS and ultra-capacitor applications. These people are developing dielectric materials they say are better than TiBaO3 (higher dielectric constant, less leakage, better mechanical stability, etc.) that may be useful for Woodward-Mach effect product development.

They certainly might. I track developments in capacitor materials all the time and if you have any info you can share on this I'd appreciate it. Do you know for instance, if these are piezo-electric ceramics, what their k value is, etc.?

Its a polymer/ceramic matrix material, which would be significant because it would handle mechanical stress better than any pure ceramic material. One engineering issue with Woodward-Mach devices (assuming the effect is real) is the mechanical stress on the dielectric material during device operation. All of the well-known dielectrics, including BaTiO3, are ceramics and are brittle as a result. I do not know all of the details of it as it has been developed by a friend of a friend (my friend developed process equipment for MEMS thin-films) and I have not had direct contact with the developer. However, I can contact the developer (and perhaps get samples) if the Woodward-Mach effect is verified.

The material has been developed a such a matrix partly to reduce internal stress since the intended applications are both as ultra-capacitors as well as power applications in various MEMS devices.

MEMS is a big area right now.

[GIThruster]

MEMS is huge right now.

I have seen these polymer/BaTiO3 mixes in the past and they were not optimal on two counts. One was their k value was substantially less than other options. k values over 30,000 are of particular interest to me if you find them. Second issue is there are some large distinctions between thin films and bulk materials. Thin films are often record breaking because permittivity is hugely enhanced when dealing with very little mass--cell walls kill permittivity. For example, single crystal BaTiO3 has a k of about 6,000, but the very thin BaTiO3 ultra-caps coming from Japan (I have some custom stuff in stock) have a k of more than 30,000.

Anyway, please do keep tabs. There's no telling how even films will be useful in the future. And if you have the chance, please track how these materials are created. Stuff created through CVD for example, show potential for UFG commercialization at very high frequencies. You'll want to track how high frequency their capacitance is flat to. Future UFG's might well operate to the low Ghz range.

[MSimon]

What is a UFG? I think if you use an acronym the first use in any post you should spell it out. Not every one reading is conversant with your field of expertise.

[Giorgio]

What is a UFG? I think if you use an acronym the first use in any post you should spell it out. Not every one reading is conversant with your field of expertise.

Unidirectional Force Generator.

[GIThruster]

What is a UFG? I think if you use an acronym the first use in any post you should spell it out. Not every one reading is conversant with your field of expertise.

Unidirectional Force Generator.

Quite so. To put that in context, the UFG was the first M-E thruster design Woodward came up with. After a couple years of only mildly successful work, he and Paul March came up with the MLT as a way to sidestep all the complex acoustic issues in the UFG. After a few years work on the MLT, Woodward came to realize the MLT has its own issue, in that it does not generate true "bulk acceleration" in the way necessary for higher thrusts.

Now, Paul March is working on an improved MLT that will hopefully provide much larger bulk accelerations than any MLT in the past, and Woodward has returned to work on the UFG, trying once again to work through the very complex acoustic impedance issues. Right now, it looks like both March and Woodward are on track and we should hope to see significant test results in the next year. I'm sure a year sounds like a long wait, but Woodward is accustomed to taking a 5 month break each summer, and March is working another project at JSC for the next 9 months, so we will need to wait longer than we'd like. Such is the outcome of no funding. . .

[kurt9]

MEMS is huge right now.

I have seen these polymer/BaTiO3 mixes in the past and they were not optimal on two counts. One was their k value was substantially less than other options. k values over 30,000 are of particular interest to me if you find them. Second issue is there are some large distinctions between thin films and bulk materials. Thin films are often record breaking because permittivity is hugely enhanced when dealing with very little mass--cell walls kill permittivity. For example, single crystal BaTiO3 has a k of about 6,000, but the very thin BaTiO3 ultra-caps coming from Japan (I have some custom stuff in stock) have a k of more than 30,000.

Anyway, please do keep tabs. There's no telling how even films will be useful in the future. And if you have the chance, please track how these materials are created. Stuff created through CVD for example, show potential for UFG commercialization at very high frequencies. You'll want to track how high frequency their capacitance is flat to. Future UFG's might well operate to the low Ghz range.

It does not use BaTiO3. It uses a different material. They have developed several materials for various applications. In any case, I will follow up with them once Woodward and March demonstrate the W-M effect as real.

You're right that this will probably take another year. Anyway, the material will be better by then as well.