10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

KitemanSA wrote:
tomclarke wrote: No, but that is not relevant to the argument. The work needed to make LENR measurements better does not require lots of money, just lots of care & time from a good experimenter.
.
.
Let me qualify that. Suppose LENR is rubbish. We expect some fraction (say 10%) of experiments to give anomalous results which appear to support it. We expect that with great care the errors in these can be discovered - without great care they will remain question marks. We expect that since this care require lots of time, money and high quality people it will not often be applied.
Which is it? Doesn't or does?
OK - caught red handed.

But the first lots was relative to somone doing a hobby on a shoestring.

The second relative to the cost of LHC and other particle physics experiments.

I would say it costs 10s of thousands of dollars equipment (much of which any uni would have anyway). It costs twelve months of a good experimenter's time. Say $100,000 salary. Plus backup technicians etc.

bk78
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Post by bk78 »

Skipjack wrote:
And all those observers were not able to do much, but watch Rossis poor show.
Were they? Most of them seem to think otherwise. I think that you are making deductions of off hearsay.
So, what did they do? What instruments did they use?
The only one who actually brought instruments was Mats Lewans. Improper ones, I have to add, because with his method of measuring electrical power, i.e. he can't even say whether effective power is flowing TO or FROM the reactor, or whether it's purely reactive.
LOL!
Look, if you are a good con artist, then your con is simple and easy to control. This machine and con ( if it is one) is neither simple, nor easy to control.
This machine (and all previous ones) are super easy and cheap to fake. When he switched his remote control, a valve in the reactor could have opened, dripping water on aluminium power (with some NaOH as catalyzer). OR a valve added H2O2 to the secondary feed. OR a induction oven in another room powered up. OR his USB thermometer startet to give higher readings (easy to hack). OR the thermocouples were influenced. OR a valve diverted water from the secondary input to the primary output. He does not even need a RC, a bimetal switch as in any decades-old thermostate would do, too. This whole thread is full of examples. Those "critical experts" are in front of your nose. Note that i.e. Mats Lewans can not be too critical of Rossis shows, otherwise he will be called a snake and eventually not get invited anymore, like Krivit (although this might be something good, because Rossi would be forced to do a proper demonstration - or never to be heard again if he can not).
If you say something like "elaborate machine with so many parts and expenses involved", I wonder whether we are talking about the same thing. All I see is a taped together piece of rusty junk metal. Compare that to those amateur polywell projects, they are an order of magnitude more complicated, everything looks shiny and proper, and they obviously did NOT cost "a house". I see this as an good example for how much believes can change ones perception of reality.

Self dilusion is probable for the majority of LENR researchers, but certainly not for Rossi. I cannot imagine he had his nose over this thing, claiming O/I ratios of over 100, self sustained mode etc., for years and not realizing that there is not more output than input.
The whole enrichment story is another example, either he has developed a new form of enrichment, or he has not. Of course he has not, he could have made money out of this a long time ago. It needs a lot of skills in physics, which someone who does not understand the problems of calometry FOR MORE THAN 6 TIMES IN A ROW, declining the offered help, and claiming a lot of other nonsense, does not have. To all likelihood, it costs many 100s of millions for the required amounts of nickel (at the same time he claims that electricity would cost less than 1 ct/kWh, of which the catalyzer is only a small part), and can hardly have gone unnoticed (think of nuclear weapons). Of course, the claim for enrichment only came up when someone stood up and asked "isn't it a bit strange that the copper produced has perfectly natural isotope ratios?". For some reason, this did not ring a bell in believers like Kiteman, who defended this absurd thesis.

On a side note: I do not see LENR as pessimistic as the ecat, though it's unlikely. In fact, LENR DOES take place in any metal hydride, but to an amount that is not practical (and this process DOES emit beta/gamma radiation, contrary to what Rossi says). I would not be surprised if it never gets feasible at all. Tomclarke explained well why.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

Skip,

we can agree that it still has to be clearly proven (in a sense or the other) if Rossi has or has not discovered something new, BUT you have to agree that bk78 does have a point when he says that all the stories that Rossi has told till date make little sense.

And this IMHO is a point of outmost importance when you have to judge the claims of someone, especially such amazing claims.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

tomclarke wrote: OK - caught red handed.

But the first lots was relative to somone doing a hobby on a shoestring.

The second relative to the cost of LHC and other particle physics experiments.

I would say it costs 10s of thousands of dollars equipment (much of which any uni would have anyway). It costs twelve months of a good experimenter's time. Say $100,000 salary. Plus backup technicians etc.
But given the reception most likely to be received for that type of work, are there universities willing to expend that kind of funding? The subject has been relagated to the hands of dilitentes like Rossi. And Rossi has his own business agenda.

One of my primary concerns in this whole issue is that the "experts" seem to be willing to admit of no possible way but their own. So if a LENR D-D reaction produces He and little or no 3He or 3H they claim it is "indisputable evidence" that there is a mistake because D-D ALWAYS produces 3He and 3H. (Well almost always such that the He is a very small effect; they will SOMETIMES admit.) And in typical plasmas, that is true; after all, energy and momentum must be conserved. But IS IT TRUE in a lattice? Does IC cause a shift in the probability of which species is evolved? This seems to be totally disgarded as a possibility.

Oh well.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Giorgio wrote:Skip,

we can agree that it still has to be clearly proven (in a sense or the other) if Rossi has or has not discovered something new, BUT you have to agree that bk78 does have a point when he says that all the stories that Rossi has told till date make little sense.

And this IMHO is a point of outmost importance when you have to judge the claims of someone, especially such amazing claims.
Heck, Rossi's antics are pushing MY "nay" button harder and harder, and my button is perhaps harder to push than most.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

In response to a question asking how long the 1 MW plant to be tested on October 28th, Andrea Rossi replied with a strong statement:

We will run also in self sustained mode, the periods will depend on many factors. In any case, the power output will be 6 times the power input. About the snakes: the time of the snakes is over. The start up of the 1 MW plant is the end of the mental masturbations of enviuos, wannabe theorists, lecturers of calorimetry and engineering. Now LENR goes to the market. The test will not be made by me, but by the Customers’ consultants. Time of chatters is over. Maybe the test will not be good, maybe: it will be the first time I will start up a plant of that dimension, but in this case the problem will be the Customer, not the bunch of imbeciles that instead of understanding that we actually made LENR a reality lose their time digging holes on the surface the water in the middle of the ocean to find the wine. And in the case this test will go not well, we will learn and remake another, and another, and another, but, be sure, we will arrive to the target. At any cost.
tomclarke, weren't you one of several posters here forecasting, with great certainty, that the 1 MW test would be delayed at least a year?

polyill
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Post by polyill »

parallel wrote:
tomclarke, weren't you one of several posters here forecasting, with great certainty, that the 1 MW test would be delayed at least a year?
O, victorious! O, parallel! ..well, it hasn't happened yet, to remind you.

BTW, who is the customer, that will be conducting the test?
I probably missed it.. Please, link me...

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

parallel wrote:
In response to a question asking how long the 1 MW plant to be tested on October 28th, Andrea Rossi replied with a strong statement:

We will run also in self sustained mode, the periods will depend on many factors. In any case, the power output will be 6 times the power input. About the snakes: the time of the snakes is over. The start up of the 1 MW plant is the end of the mental masturbations of enviuos, wannabe theorists, lecturers of calorimetry and engineering. Now LENR goes to the market. The test will not be made by me, but by the Customers’ consultants. Time of chatters is over. Maybe the test will not be good, maybe: it will be the first time I will start up a plant of that dimension, but in this case the problem will be the Customer, not the bunch of imbeciles that instead of understanding that we actually made LENR a reality lose their time digging holes on the surface the water in the middle of the ocean to find the wine. And in the case this test will go not well, we will learn and remake another, and another, and another, but, be sure, we will arrive to the target. At any cost.
tomclarke, weren't you one of several posters here forecasting, with great certainty, that the 1 MW test would be delayed at least a year?
Tomclarke was making that as one of the possible predictions, not THE prediction.

But what really leaves me without words is this reply of Rossi.

As a businessman I do not understand what he hopes to obtain with these continuous "name calling" if not some extra simpathy from his loyal followers.
This attitude is acceptable in a 6 years old, not in someone the age of Rossi.

As an engineer I cannot accept that "Maybe the test will not be good, maybe". What the heck? He refused the free help offered by many stating that they have all the knowledge they need to successfully design and build their machine and than he says that "maybe the test will not be good".... nonsense.

As a science lover I reject statements as "we will arrive to the target. At any cost". These are not words of a scientist that is convinced about his discovery. These are words of a prophet that his warming the crowd to keep it loyal in the eve of the coming failure.

We all have seen this before a few month ago gentlemen, it was called STEORN at the time, and we all know how it ended.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

KitemanSA wrote: Heck, Rossi's antics are pushing MY "nay" button harder and harder, and my button is perhaps harder to push than most.
After the above statement by Rossi I think you can nail that button in the pushed position.

olivier
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Post by olivier »

I hope the style is not the man, because the style is more and more that of someone who is about to threaten us of a swarm of locusts or a meteor rain if we do not believe him. Actually his style was something that made me think he could be self-delusioned but not a fraud. Con artists generally look trustworthy.

polyill
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Post by polyill »

Giorgio wrote:
parallel wrote:
In response to a question asking how long the 1 MW plant to be tested on October 28th, Andrea Rossi replied with a strong statement:

We will run also in self sustained mode, the periods will depend on many factors. In any case, the power output will be 6 times the power input. About the snakes: the time of the snakes is over. The start up of the 1 MW plant is the end of the mental masturbations of enviuos, wannabe theorists, lecturers of calorimetry and engineering. Now LENR goes to the market. The test will not be made by me, but by the Customers’ consultants. Time of chatters is over. Maybe the test will not be good, maybe: it will be the first time I will start up a plant of that dimension, but in this case the problem will be the Customer, not the bunch of imbeciles that instead of understanding that we actually made LENR a reality lose their time digging holes on the surface the water in the middle of the ocean to find the wine. And in the case this test will go not well, we will learn and remake another, and another, and another, but, be sure, we will arrive to the target. At any cost.
tomclarke, weren't you one of several posters here forecasting, with great certainty, that the 1 MW test would be delayed at least a year?
Tomclarke was making that as one of the possible predictions, not THE prediction.

But what really leaves me without words is this reply of Rossi.

As a businessman I do not understand what he hopes to obtain with these continuous "name calling" if not some extra simpathy from his loyal followers.
This attitude is acceptable in a 6 years old, not in someone the age of Rossi.

As an engineer I cannot accept that "Maybe the test will not be good, maybe". What the heck? He refused the free help offered by many stating that they have all the knowledge they need to successfully design and build their machine and than he says that "maybe the test will not be good".... nonsense.

As a science lover I reject statements as "we will arrive to the target. At any cost". These are not words of a scientist that is convinced about his discovery. These are words of a prophet that his warming the crowd to keep it loyal in the eve of the coming failure.

We all have seen this before a few month ago gentlemen, it was called STEORN at the time, and we all know how it ended.
Leave alone the fact he never answered the actual question he was asked :)

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

This machine (and all previous ones) are super easy and cheap to fake. When he switched his remote control, a valve in the reactor could have opened, dripping water on aluminium power (with some NaOH as catalyzer). OR a valve added H2O2 to the secondary feed. OR a induction oven in another room powered up. OR his USB thermometer startet to give higher readings (easy to hack). OR the thermocouples were influenced. OR a valve diverted water from the secondary input to the primary output. He does not even need a RC, a bimetal switch as in any decades-old thermostate would do, too. This whole thread is full of examples. Those "critical experts" are in front of your nose. Note that i.e. Mats Lewans can not be too critical of Rossis shows, otherwise he will be called a snake and eventually not get invited anymore, like Krivit (although this might be something good, because Rossi would be forced to do a proper demonstration - or never to be heard again if he can not).
If you say something like "elaborate machine with so many parts and expenses involved", I wonder whether we are talking about the same thing. All I see is a taped together piece of rusty junk metal. Compare that to those amateur polywell projects, they are an order of magnitude more complicated, everything looks shiny and proper, and they obviously did NOT cost "a house". I see this as an good example for how much believes can change ones perception of reality.
Ok, you do have some valid points there and then you dont.
When I am talking about the complexity of a scam, I am NOT necessarily talking about the machine allone. From an engineering POV it may not be that complex, but from a scam POV it is.
There are way easier ways to scam money out of people, with a much smaller risk of getting cought. Look at all the successful scams out there and how simple they were in comparison. Look at Wallstreet and all the banks that are so successfully scamming money out of our governments, just for an example.
You will definitely not choose a field that is already highly desputed and therefore suspicious and then invite so many scientists to critically (even though sloppily) inspect your device. It seems incredibly counter productive. If it was a scam, he would have just come up with some excuse for why the demonstration would not happen that day. You know the delay tactics.
Self dilusion is probable for the majority of LENR researchers, but certainly not for Rossi. I cannot imagine he had his nose over this thing, claiming O/I ratios of over 100, self sustained mode etc., for years and not realizing that there is not more output than input.
Again, this is not very credible for a scam. If I was to make a scam, it would definitely look like it would produce WAAAAAY more energy than it consumes. You said yourself that it is easy to fake.
The whole enrichment story is another example, either he has developed a new form of enrichment, or he has not. Of course he has not, he could have made money out of this a long time ago. It needs a lot of skills in physics, which someone who does not understand the problems of calometry FOR MORE THAN 6 TIMES IN A ROW, declining the offered help, and claiming a lot of other nonsense, does not have.
Yeah, that is something that I am still very confused about as well and one of the reasons why a scam is still a possibility for me.
To all likelihood, it costs many 100s of millions for the required amounts of nickel (at the same time he claims that electricity would cost less than 1 ct/kWh, of which the catalyzer is only a small part), and can hardly have gone unnoticed (think of nuclear weapons). Of course, the claim for enrichment only came up when someone stood up and asked "isn't it a bit strange that the copper produced has perfectly natural isotope ratios?". For some reason, this did not ring a bell in believers like Kiteman, who defended this absurd thesis.
Also a good argument and why I think that if this device works (as I said, 50:50), we have not seen a credible theory yet as to why it does.
On a side note: I do not see LENR as pessimistic as the ecat, though it's unlikely. In fact, LENR DOES take place in any metal hydride, but to an amount that is not practical (and this process DOES emit beta/gamma radiation, contrary to what Rossi says). I would not be surprised if it never gets feasible at all. Tomclarke explained well why.
I am just as pessimistic about LENR now as I am about the ecat. I used to be more pesimistic about the ecat, but the latest demonstration kinda reduced the likeliness of a scam for me. Before, I had the easy explanation that Levi was simply in on the scam. Now, I am not so sure anymore. There are to many factors now that would have been very hard for Rossi to control. It would have been enough for one of the experts there to touch the metal connection of the heat exchanger, e.g. to notice that it was too hot and that the heat would have affected measurements.
They were allowed to inspect things rather freely from what I understand (only exception being the inside of the black box).
After all they were there for an entire day. I seriously hope they all did not just stand there in awe for 12 hours watching the ecat boil (not not boil, depending on which side of the fence you are on).
With a demonstration like this, that was this long, the risk of discovery would have been very high.
Last edited by Skipjack on Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

polyill wrote:
parallel wrote:
tomclarke, weren't you one of several posters here forecasting, with great certainty, that the 1 MW test would be delayed at least a year?
O, victorious! O, parallel! ..well, it hasn't happened yet, to remind you.

BTW, who is the customer, that will be conducting the test?
I probably missed it.. Please, link me...
Can't remember exactly, but did I not say, "or the test will not be a real test..."

We will see. Or not, if the test is not transparent.

After all, anyone would think that a 1MW reactor is pretty easy to test, it works or it does not. However in Rossi land things can be more complex than that.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

tomclarke wrote:After all, anyone would think that a 1MW reactor is pretty easy to test, it works or it does not. However in Rossi land things can be more complex than that.
As I said before, 1MW/h steam coming out of a 2" pipeline is not going to be healthy for any one near that machine.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

tomclarke,

I doubt it will be that easy. The test is supposedly being done by the customer, who may or may not want the results public.

A potential problem is that it works but does not meet the 6:1 ratio.

At least the cooling water is to be recirculated so reducing furring of the heat exchanger.
(My guess is this is how the customer will measure the heat output.)

If it does work, 1 megawatt will be difficult to explain away.

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