Talk-Polywell.org

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea ... uly12-2014

Flow batteries.

The trouble is, I need something I can buy at a lowes or Menards to store power from my system..

Imergy Power Systems has come up with an innovative technique to extract vanadium for its storage systems from mine tailings, depleted oil wells and oil storage depots. To get our active ingredient, we clean up environmental hazards.

What does this do to production costs? What is the environmental impact and cost impact of having huge tanks around, holding vanadium (and other things) and eventually needing to be retired?

You typically pay a lot of money to dispose of such. If you can sell it instead, even if it only covers transportation, you're better off.

You'll still have hazwaste but you've gotten a bit more value out of it.

The trouble is, I need something I can buy at a lowes or Menards to store power from my system..

I bought a 3.5KW Natural Gas powered generator from Lowes last year. Where I live, the power goes out occasionally. Not too often, but when it does it goes out for a day or two. When the power goes out, the heat/cooling doesn't work. No Lights, no cooking, nothing.

The generator I bought ties into the house electrical and kicks in after about a second. When the ice storm hit the south and the power went out for 2 days last winter, I was the only house in the neighborhood still up and running. Comes in handy. Costs ~$3000 installed.

J

If anyone wants more capacity than usual small generators you might want to look at Capstone micro turbines...

http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prodsol/products/

The exhaust from them can be used as a thermal source for space heating, hot water, and via an absorption chiller for cooling as well. Using the exhaust heat greatly increases the overall efficiency one gets out of whatever fuel version you use.

double post

Those are very interesting little machines capstone makes. One wonders if they're decently priced. If they were cheap you'd think every supermarket and convenience store would have one as backup for their frozen goods. Me thinks they may not be very cheap, though I don't know what would qualify as "cheap' in this regard. But just saying, suppose Wawa decided to put them in at every store that has natural gas. They could buy in bulk and one suspects afford several thousands of dollars each store. $10-15k would be justifiable. I now last time the power was out here from Sandy, the local Wawa threw out more stock than that and lost much more in sales while they were closed, when they could have been cleaning up selling when no one else was.

Turbines are not very efficient at energy conversion compared to internal combustion engines like diesels or even gasoline engines. Utilizing waste heat would help, but it would also be the same for ICEs. Such heat recovery also needs dedicated equipment which would duplicate existant heating and cooling setups- an additional cost. A fuel cell is the best from an energy efficiency, I think. The only real advantage for a turbine is if a high energy density source is required and this priority dominates over efficiency and cost. Other considerations like reliability and life cycle costs may also apply.

Dan Tibbets

Once again energy storage is the 400 pound gorilla in the room. I can make all the power I need I just can not store it for when I want to use it and oversize system for occasional use do not make long term solution

paperburn1 wrote:Once again energy storage is the 400 pound gorilla in the room.

That is what makes "greens" so pernicious. They do not get the need for matching supply and demand.

D Tibbets wrote:The only real advantage for a turbine is if a high energy density source is required and this priority dominates over efficiency and cost. Other considerations like reliability and life cycle costs may also apply.

Especially reliability. IC engines need routine maintenance and often turbines do not. And although high energy density is not required, small footprint is likely an issue. This is where the turbine rules. It is of course a kind of energy density, but not what one would normally consider. Tuck the thing in the back out of the way and hope to never use it, but be sure it will work when needed. With all the storm damage that happens all over the country each year you'd think these mini-turbines would have a real market. 28kW is enough to run most small businesses and those that concern food and fuel need to be open shortly after weather events. Too you'd think anywhere designated a "shelter" by FEMA or what not, would have something like this. I presume all police stations have their own generators. I know many supermarkets do.

GIThruster wrote:Those are very interesting little machines capstone makes. One wonders if they're decently priced. If they were cheap you'd think every supermarket and convenience store would have one as backup for their frozen goods. Me thinks they may not be very cheap, though I don't know what would qualify as "cheap' in this regard. But just saying, suppose Wawa decided to put them in at every store that has natural gas. They could buy in bulk and one suspects afford several thousands of dollars each store. $10-15k would be justifiable. I now last time the power was out here from Sandy, the local Wawa threw out more stock than that and lost much more in sales while they were closed, when they could have been cleaning up selling when no one else was.

Since you mention supermarkets, you can find a case study where a market uses a capstone based system for heating, cooling, and power here:
http://www.capstoneturbine.com/_docs/CS ... ket_NY.pdf

They are getting 80% efficiency of the fuel's energy.