Talk-Polywell.org

Oh shoot. I thought they were really going to launch the Orion (TM) spacecraft aka big daddy boom boom!

That was my first thought too.

A few years after Dr. Bussard talk "Should Google Go Nuclear" I was sitting on a plane next to a guy who introduced himself as one of the engineers working on the Orion project at NASA.
I don't exactly remember who he was, but at that time I had an impression that he was one of the big wigs there. He said something about being the head engineer or something like that.

As our conversation developed I started asking him if he has heard about Polywell and some of the other energy and propulsion concepts discussed here on this forum. He hadn't. I asked him about Dr Woodward's work, he hasn't heard about that either. Finally he said something I remember very well: "People are asking me, why do we need to go back to the Moon. I know what my reasons is: so I can send my kids through college"... He thought that was funny.

Since that encounter and after watching other big government projects I have developed an opinion that the government should completely get out of directly financing science, as it only creates false pretense that something is being accomplished. How can a little outfit accomplish any breakthrough if this large and well funded government project hiring top talent couldn't? This only slows down those who really are making progress, whether it is spaceflight or fusion.

pbelter wrote:A few years after Dr. Bussard talk "Should Google Go Nuclear" I was sitting on a plane next to a guy who introduced himself as one of the engineers working on the Orion project at NASA.
I don't exactly remember who he was, but at that time I had an impression that he was one of the big wigs there. He said something about being the head engineer or something like that.

As our conversation developed I started asking him if he has heard about Polywell and some of the other energy and propulsion concepts discussed here on this forum. He hadn't. I asked him about Dr Woodward's work, he hasn't heard about that either. Finally he said something I remember very well: "People are asking me, why do we need to go back to the Moon. I know what my reasons is: so I can send my kids through college"... He thought that was funny.

Since that encounter and after watching other big government projects I have developed an opinion that the government should completely get out of directly financing science, as it only creates false pretense that something is being accomplished. How can a little outfit accomplish any breakthrough if this large and well funded government project hiring top talent couldn't? This only slows down those who really are making progress, whether it is spaceflight or fusion.

The reasons are right, the conclusion is wrong. Orion is not science, nor is the SLS. They were written into law by (republican) senators who wanted to make sure that certain large defense contractors got a nice government cost plus contract. The right way to do it would be the way NASA did the CRS contracts and is now doing Commercial Crew. But the republicans in congress hate those, since they are the antagonism to the cost plus contracts their favorite defense lobbyists love so much.

Skipjack wrote:

The reasons are right, the conclusion is wrong. Orion is not science, nor is the SLS. They were written into law by (republican) senators who wanted to make sure that certain large defense contractors got a nice government cost plus contract. The right way to do it would be the way NASA did the CRS contracts and is now doing Commercial Crew. But the republicans in congress hate those, since they are the antagonism to the cost plus contracts their favorite defense lobbyists love so much.

I would ordinarily believe any such assertion from someone else, but with you I wouldn't believe it unless you provided citations in support of your claim.


That being said, there are plenty of problems with the Democrat-lite Republicrats that keep doing sh*t like this. The establishment protects these pork barrelers and hates reformers.

Diogenes wrote: I would ordinarily believe any such assertion from someone else, but with you I wouldn't believe it unless you provided citations in support of your claim.
That being said, there are plenty of problems with the Democrat-lite Republicrats that keep doing sh*t like this. The establishment protects these pork barrelers and hates reformers.

Which is extra funny, because I am actually siding with people like Andrew Gasser from Tea Party in Space on this issue...
Luckily there is plenty of documentation of all that. My fellow new space enthusiast and ultra conservative Rand Simberg even made a bunch of great videos explaining what happened.
Here is what Bloomberg says about a recent stunt by my favorite of the "repubs for wasteful spending", Shelby (the others are Wolf, Hutchinson and Hatch).
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... -nasa-plan
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/ ... nasa-pork/
http://www.andrewlawler.com/obama-backs ... sa-budget/
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... o-nowehere
https://www.newspacewatch.com/articles/ ... sport.html

Here is the list of videos by Rand Simberg that explains perfectly well what was and is wrong with US space politics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4J9uvhJQM0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2HeHfVSybo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_RMphRObEo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L1fKoFKyuQ

The issue has nothing to do with party. SLS lives because it is supported by powerful senators whose constituency is dependent upon NASA being a government employment program for the wealthy. It's not just the MIC but also the folks at NASA itself serving in Florida, Georgia and Texas.

One day though, these bastards will finish Orion and have to publish what the thing cost to build over how many years, and someone will compare that to SpaceX building the far more capable Dragon. Then we can expect the end of these in house spacecraft projects that NASA screws up so often, and see the money go to places that will act responsibly for it.

None of this has anything to do with cost-plus contracts. It's just jobs. If OBama had had a spine, he would have stopped SLS. He knew that was what he should do, and didn't care enough to do it.

Really almost everyone in both parties is to blame for pandering to that kind of political crap.

I wonder which party, Repubs or Democans is most in bed with their respective Cronies, Banksters, Green Blobs, Mob-Unions, and my favorite, Foreign gubermants? It would be nice to create a metric for it.

GIThruster wrote:The issue has nothing to do with party. SLS lives because it is supported by powerful senators whose constituency is dependent upon NASA being a government employment program for the wealthy. It's not just the MIC but also the folks at NASA itself serving in Florida, Georgia and Texas.

One day though, these bastards will finish Orion and have to publish what the thing cost to build over how many years, and someone will compare that to SpaceX building the far more capable Dragon. Then we can expect the end of these in house spacecraft projects that NASA screws up so often, and see the money go to places that will act responsibly for it.

None of this has anything to do with cost-plus contracts. It's just jobs. If OBama had had a spine, he would have stopped SLS. He knew that was what he should do, and didn't care enough to do it.

Really almost everyone in both parties is to blame for pandering to that kind of political crap.

I agree that SpaceX is showing how to get things done at a reasonable budget. Even ULA would be better and had plans for deep space exploration that did not require a super heavy lifter like the SLS, but would have used existing launchers like the Delta IV Heavy (see propellant depot study for NASA).
As we all know, it is not THAT easy for the president to push something through. Then the repubs whine again about the president playing dictator, etc.
Regarding who is mostly behind the SLS (and against competition from commercial providers), the main drivers behind the SLS are senators: Shelby (R, Al), Hutchinson (R, Tx), Congressman Wolf (R, Va), Hatch (R, Ut) and senator Nelson (D, Fl).
Did I miss someone?

While it's true that Congress holds the purse strings, NASA is an executive agency, and takes its lead directly from the President. Nancy Pelosi threatened Bush that Congress would not authorize any money for going to Mars, so Bush stepped back what he wanted, but the fact is, he could have pushed and found out whether Pelosi really was going to sabotage the budget over that item. Same with SLS. If OBama had said publicly "these are all the reasons we don't need this program and the money is better spent here. . ." he could have gotten what he wanted. Instead, he backed away from a fight, which is his modus operandi.

GIThruster wrote:While it's true that Congress holds the purse strings, NASA is an executive agency, and takes its lead directly from the President. Nancy Pelosi threatened Bush that Congress would not authorize any money for going to Mars, so Bush stepped back what he wanted, but the fact is, he could have pushed and found out whether Pelosi really was going to sabotage the budget over that item. Same with SLS. If OBama had said publicly "these are all the reasons we don't need this program and the money is better spent here. . ." he could have gotten what he wanted. Instead, he backed away from a fight, which is his modus operandi.

Well, it was not quite that simple. There was last minute language inserted into bills that were needed to pass at the time (Shelby did that) or NASA would have been stuck.
Either way, these same people still keep trying to torpedo commercial space wherever they can. Shelby once again inserted language into a bill this year with the sole intent to damage commercial crew.

Yes I know. I wonder if there isn't a way to get that guy locked up.

Just thought I'd throw out a reminder that the Orion launch is currently scheduled for 0705 eastern time tomorrow (4 Dec). Its a two hour launch window, and the article I read said a 60% chance the weather would cooperate.

I didn't get to check until just now, but it looks like it was scrubbed and rescheduled for 0705 eastern tomorrow.