Near Spherical Magrid

Discuss how polywell fusion works; share theoretical questions and answers.

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D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

ladajo wrote:
WizWom wrote:
ladajo wrote:Dan,
I see it more as a bucket with holes as well as evaporation and birds that drink.
Flux in does not equal Flux out. It is loss mechanism dependant.
Um... Gauss' law would say you're absolutely and totally wrong.

There are no magnetic monopoles, so net flux through a closed surface must be zero. That means if a field line goes in, it must come out.
Yes you are correct, I was mixing ideas in my head regarding particles and fields, and not clear in my intent.
My impression on losses in the Polywell is as follows:

1) Cross field transport. This is proportional to machine size and B field strength. Because electrons have significantly smaller gyroradii compared to ions, the size can be significantly smaller for the same cross field (ExB drift) transport dependent electron life times. The ions in the Polywell are supposed to be electrostatically contained within the Wiffleball border and thus they do not experience this transport, unless they are sufficiently upscattered. Also, the ions have low speeds in the Wiffleball border region, so any magnetic domain induced gyroradii are corespondingly small. In the upscattered ion case, they would also have shorter cusp confinement times, so this cusp loss mechanism would possibly still dominate for these select ions. The cross field transport is why Tokamaks have to be so big to achieve adequate ion magnetic containment, even though they do not have the cusp losses that the Polywell has (unless you consider macro instabilities as temporary cusps, and you ignore diverters, which are apparently needed for any working tokamak).

2) Electron losses through cusps. Electrons are at the bottem of their potential well when they enter a cusp, so losses need to be kept as small as possible by pinching the cusp throats nearly closed via the Wiffleball effect. Efficient recirculation relaxes this limit considerably, to the extent that the Wiffleball traping is more important for maintaining useful density/ fusion rates. Ion losses through cusps is apparently trivial as they are contained electrostatically below the cusps due to the potential well established by the excess electrons.

The electron cusp losses are perhaps 100 times as great (or more) as electron cross field transport losses. This estimate is based on the 2008 patent application that mentioned that if recirculation can recycle the cusp lost electrons by up to ~ 100X, then these loses would approach the cross field losses.

3) Radiation losses. Cyclotron losses are apparently modest. Bremsstrulung losses need to be accounted for, especially with high Z fuels (P-B11) and increasing drive energies. Ion mixing ratios apparently can help this some. With P-B11 fusion, operating around the fusion crossection resonance peak could also help some, especially if the ion populations can be kept within a narrow center of mass (?) energy range near this peak.

4) Input losses- ie: inefficiencies in the ion and electron guns, any losses from electrons that do not travel cleanly through a cusp, interference with cusp behavior and/ or recirculation due to the guns being near the cusps, etc.

5) Unshielded magrid surfaces or supports in the locations near the cusps that interferes with efficient recirculation. Based on what Nebel said about the WB7 nub heating. This may be the most significant area where additional gains can be made.

On the opposite side of the coin are things that increase the fusion rate, such as maintaining confluence, monoenergetic populations, and possible POPS effects. Also, the Wiffleball trapping factor that maximizes obtainable densities within the machine.

PS: As mentioned in the 2008 patent application, especially with high Z fuels like boron, as the positive alpha fusion ions leave the system, they leave behind the electrons. At least with gas puffing systems (as opposed to ion guns) this may greatly decrease the needed input electron current necessary to maintain the potential well. I'm not sure how this would effect the electron energy balance( net effective energy of the hot injected electrons and the cool secondary ionization electrons).

Dan Tibbets
Last edited by D Tibbets on Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
To error is human... and I'm very human.

krenshala
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Post by krenshala »

rjaypeters wrote:
krenshala wrote:Has anyone made a new(er) model of the dodecahedral magrid?...
Over in "magrid configuration brainstorming" since the magrids aren't "bowed."
Bah ... I meant to post that in that other thread. :/ Thank you for posting the images there, however. ;)

Why not bow them on the dodec as well, however? Bowed pentagonal coils can't be any more complex than some of the other proposed designs in this thread. :D

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

krenshala wrote:Why not bow them on the dodec as well, however? Bowed pentagonal coils can't be any more complex than some of the other proposed designs in this thread.
So far, we are up to eight magrid elements. The greater the number of elements, the closer we are to a sphere. It would take a while for me to model, but I'm waiting (and praying) for Spring anyway...If I can crank out a truncated icosahedron in less than a day, I can do anything, right?
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

icarus
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Post by icarus »

So far, we are up to eight magrid elements. The greater the number of elements, the closer we are to a sphere. It would take a while for me to model, but I'm waiting (and praying) for Spring anyway...If I can crank out a truncated icosahedron in less than a day, I can do anything, right?
and if you're feeling masochistic you could put pentagonal/hexagonal elements with rounded corners ('zipped' line cusp truncated icosahedron) for the full Monty 'soccer ball' Ma-Grid .... just saying ... (replicate function is your best friend right?) :)

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

icarus wrote:(replicate function is your best friend right?) :)
True, but sometimes I have to wrestle with the software. A craftsman doesn't blame the tools...and my professional vanity prevents me from showing anything less than undetectably blemished.

Not sure I'm going the full Monty, if you want to see what the "zipped-up" truncated icosahedron looks like - look at a soccer ball. Though, thinking about the dodecahedron is giving me ideas about how to go faster...
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

"Spherized" Dodecahedron:

Image Image Image Image
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

hanelyp
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Post by hanelyp »

rjaypeters, try turning the pentagons 36 degrees. Needs the triangle faces between the pentagons.

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

Over in magrid configuration brainstorming and writing (I think) about the "Cubist" WB:
krenshala wrote:I thought the idea of squaring out the coils like in that picture was to reduce the "size" of the funny cusps in the corner? It would increase the lengths of the line cusps between coils, but to me it would seem to decrease the overall cusp area, which should thus decrease losses/increase confinement ...
Rotating the filetted pentagons by thirty-six degrees will increasing the size of the semi-triangular regions between three coils, compared to a "standard" dodecahedron with straight torii. Does krenshala's quotation apply here? I though we were trying to reduce the triangular regions?

Give me some time and I'll do some measurements.
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

krenshala
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Post by krenshala »

rjaypeters wrote:"Spherized" Dodecahedron
Interesting. Even when "spherized", the coils are pretty much flat on the dodec, while for the ocahedron and cube they have a noticable curve.

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

And now you can imagine why I'm NOT going to spherize the truncated icosahedron. 'Course it is all dependent on the thickness of the coil v. diameter of the sphere. Still I'm not eager for the T. Ico.
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

rjaypeters wrote:Rotating the filetted pentagons by thirty-six degrees will increasing the size of the semi-triangular regions between three coils, compared to a "standard" dodecahedron with straight torii. Does krenshala's quotation apply here? I though we were trying to reduce the triangular regions?
Absolutely not. Well, Icarus seems to be, but that is directly in opposition to what Dr. B. wanted and patented. You need the triangular regions to make a wiffle-ball in a polywell.

The triangular regions can be either real magnets or virtual, but the OUT field is needed.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

rjaypeters wrote:And now you can imagine why I'm NOT going to spherize the truncated icosahedron. 'Course it is all dependent on the thickness of the coil v. diameter of the sphere. Still I'm not eager for the T. Ico.
RJay,
What you really want is not a "truncated" Icosahedron but a rectified one, i.e. an icosadodecahedron. THAT is a polywell configuration. In an IcosaDodec you will find an even number of faces (four or more) meeting at every vertex and that is the definition of the polywell form.

rjaypeters
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Post by rjaypeters »

KitemanSA wrote:What you really want is not a "truncated" Icosahedron but a rectified one, i.e. an icosadodecahedron.
Okay, that looks like fun. Is that the same as a "icosidodecahedron?"
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

icarus
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Post by icarus »

Kiteman is very good at interpreting at "what Dr. B. wanted". Unfortunately, he never backs that up with quantitative analysis, preferring others to go up the myriad of possible garden paths.

Coincidentally, "what Dr. B. wanted" is the same thing Kiteman wants ... hmmmm. You've been warned, demand accountability before investing precious time.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

icarus wrote: Kiteman is very good at interpreting at "what Dr. B. wanted".
Tis quite simple really. Read his works and his patent. They (his wants) are fairly obvious there.
icarus wrote:Unfortunately, he never backs that up with quantitative analysis, preferring others to go up the myriad of possible garden paths.
Analyses... Me 1 you 0. Pot, kettle?
icarus wrote:Coincidentally, "what Dr. B. wanted" is the same thing Kiteman wants ... hmmmm. You've been warned, demand accountability before investing precious time.
This is a perfect demonstration that you know not what you say. What I want is different than what he wanted. He wanted to try a "square plan-form" magnet and a "higher order polywell" after rebuilding WB6 for validation purposes, but before deciding on the design of the 100MW unit. Read his Valencia paper. It is right there. There is no info to suggest that he wanted to bow the sides and use a real-real configuration which is what I want and have done the analysis on. If you were to read and understand my postings rather than just react with petulance you would know that. If you can't add anything but sniping, please go away.
Last edited by KitemanSA on Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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