WB-8 Wiffleball formation control

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Aero
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WB-8 Wiffleball formation control

Post by Aero »

The guys found this and posted it on the Recovery.Gov Project Tracker thread. (Bottom of the page)

viewtopic.php?t=1681&postdays=0&postord ... start=1050

I'm posting this here so that hopefully someone will speculate on what it means theoretically regarding the machine (WB-8 ) operation.

An extension and increase funding for additional tasks on Contract N68936-09-C-0125 is necessary to provide continuation of research that is directly in scope with the current requirement and it will complete the concept exploration and technology demonstration of the Plasma Wiffleball 8. During the course of the contracted study several anomalies related to how electrons were fed into the device were discovered. These anomalies must be characterized and solutions created if the device is to be made functional. To solve these anomalies, the additional effort will require the incumbent contractor to further their studies by employing independently powered electron gun arrays operating at up to 10 kilovolt (kV) to inject high energy electrons onto the Plasma Wiffleball 8 core and control the WB formation process. Additionally, a separate pulsed power system with minimum 100 amperes current rating will be utilized to power the electron gun arrays.


Full pertinant section, as well as at the end:
Quote:
EMC2 also has a unique body of knowledge regarding the operation and performance of the Plasma Wiffleball 8, which will allow them to continue the basic research to develop an operational Plasma Wiffleball 8 device. Continued research is critical, as the long term goal is to achieve a clean nuclear energy source for the Navy and DoD. Award of the contract modification is expected on or about 29 March 2012.

https://www.neco.navy.mil/synopsis/deta ... ?id=351205
Aero

happyjack27
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Post by happyjack27 »

like my sims showed, the magfield keeps electrons out just as well as it keeps electrons in.

if you do dimensional analysis on the problem with this taken into consideration, it looks like you have to grow the size of the machine faster than the mag field strength to get a net power ratio increase.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

happyjack27 wrote:like my sims showed, the magfield keeps electrons out just as well as it keeps electrons in.
Except as far as I can tell, your sim didn't wiffleball. It cusp confined. And in that case your statement is true. But with a wiffleball it shouldn't be.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

Good point. With an inflated Wiffleball, the possibility (as a ratio of total surface area to cusp throat surface area) of cusp transit changes by a factor of ~ 10-100X. So once inside the electron should last ~ that difference in time longer. Also, I presume that a recirculating electron should be passing through the cusp in a manner which will be most conducive for reflection (driven mostly by positive charged magrid). The E- gun alignment and distance outside the magrid may be less favorable for electron transit. Of course this is a simple view. Things may be much more complicated and labile. Dynamic interactions- plasma frequency, instabilities, debye lengths, etc. may allow for a wide range of performance variability.

If the cusp confinement is better and this is due to smaller cusp areas, the electron containment may be better, along with more difficult injection limits. They may go hand in hand. The initial inflation of the Wiffleball may also be more challenging if additional electron current is needed without the advantage of proportionately greater electron retention at higher betas. The steady state Wiffleball may be requiring electron injection currents near expected values. But when forming the Wiffleball the current (and precision of alignment of the e-guns) needed to overcome both the confinement leakage and the scattering of electrons before entering the magrid may be compounded in the larger and/ or higher B field machines. A higher potential on the e- guns may also fire them in a tighter beam down the throat of the cusp and allow for less spread of the beam before it is corralled and focused by the converging magnetic field lines. IE: the electron beams may be more collimated initially as they leave the e-gun, and this may be advantageous.
My thoughts are diffuse, but perhaps reflect the complex fine tuning that is necessary to allow the machine to work, or hopefully to optimize performance. The issue of 'wasted electrons' that do not make it through the cusp initially and thus accumulate outside the magrid may even be tolerable from an energy balance aspect, but they may lead to increased arcing concerns.

In short, improved electron confinement may be consistent with more difficult electron injection. There may be a limiting relationship which would dictate the size and B field strength targets. Presumably, voltage may also be a key component.

Dan Tibbets

Dan Tibbets
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Aero
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Post by Aero »

From a macro viewpoint, I speculate that they would like to have more high power shots in order to analyze more data. They wrote in an earlier update that they had taken over 500 high power shots in the quarter. Rounding out the numbers, that is about one shot per hour assuming a standard 40 hour work week.

With an hour between shots, each shot must be from a cold start condition. By adding electron guns to hold the wiffleball inflated between shots, they are steping up to the capability of taking hot shots, it seems to me. That is, taking a new shot while the ions from the previous shot are tailing off, but not yet lost, without the need to reinflate the wiffleball. Saves energy, I think.

While not continuous operation, a pulsed machine operating as above at say one Hz or higher, would be quite suitable as a heat source burning D-D or D-T fuel. Throttling would be accomplished by varying the pulse rate which should be a straight forward engineering problem.

It all hinges on the ability to achieve break even fusion power. Now that we have a couple of numbers related to electron gun power input, who wants to speculate on the amount of fuel consumed to generate break even power?
Aero

happyjack27
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Post by happyjack27 »

KitemanSA wrote:
happyjack27 wrote:like my sims showed, the magfield keeps electrons out just as well as it keeps electrons in.
Except as far as I can tell, your sim didn't wiffleball. It cusp confined. And in that case your statement is true. But with a wiffleball it shouldn't be.
why wouldn't it be? it's basic math. a wall's a wall.

also some sims did wiffleball, but that's irrelevant.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

The significant consideration, is the ratio between the input and output. At low beta, the electron confinement is "cusp confinement". The 2007 patent application mentioned this was ~ 60 passes before escape. Mirror confinement was ~ 5-8 passes before escape. Wiffleball/ high Beta confinement was several thousand passes before escape.
If you are able to get only ~ 1 electrons in per 10 electrons current over a given period of time, and the low Beta (cusp confinement) loses1/2 electron per unit of time, the Wiffleball will gradually inflate to a high Beta condition. If the relationship remains linear, no problem. But if the input efficiency decreases faster than the confinement increases, there will be an intermediate condition where Beta cannot be driven further towards 1. A work around would be a brute force approach using higher input currents and possibly higher voltage injection.

Another consideration is the duration of the magnet steady state. The liquid nitrogen cooling may be able to maintain ~ steady temperature for a relatively brief time befor runaway heating takes over. If the effective input current inflates the Wiffleball too slowly, then the duration of Beta= 1 may be too brief for good data collection on various aspects. Possibly the Wiffleball may not even reach Beta=1 before the magnet current has to be shut off. Increased input current would ease this limitation.


As for repeat test frequency. One hour may be good with their available equipment. I suspect that if the cooling cannot keep up, it might take several minutes to cool the magnets back down. Also , the accumulation of charges outside of the machine may be a limiting factor (arcing). Depending on the capacity of their vacuum pumps, it make take many minutes to get back to the startup high vacuum conditions.
Also, the ion confinement times are not very long. I'm unsure of how long the near neutral plasma could be confined without continous replacement of the electrons. The excess electrons leak relatively rapidly compared to the ions, the ~ 1 ppm excess would quickly decrease so that the negative space charge (that contains the ions) quickly dissipates, probably over time frames well below ~ 10 milliseconds. There is no intermediate standby mode. Each test initiates from a cold start- at least if the time between pulses is more than a few milli seconds.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

happyjack27 wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
happyjack27 wrote:like my sims showed, the magfield keeps electrons out just as well as it keeps electrons in.
Except as far as I can tell, your sim didn't wiffleball. It cusp confined. And in that case your statement is true. But with a wiffleball it shouldn't be.
why wouldn't it be? it's basic math. a wall's a wall.
In my mind, I view the holes in the wiffleball more like funnels than simple holes. electrons flow in more easily than out. This may not be a good analogy but it is the one I am working with. Is there a better?
happyjack27 wrote: also some sims did wiffleball, but that's irrelevant.
Really? I didn't see one. Can you link to it please?

happyjack27
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Post by happyjack27 »

KitemanSA wrote:
happyjack27 wrote:
KitemanSA wrote: Except as far as I can tell, your sim didn't wiffleball. It cusp confined. And in that case your statement is true. But with a wiffleball it shouldn't be.
why wouldn't it be? it's basic math. a wall's a wall.
In my mind, I view the holes in the wiffleball more like funnels than simple holes. electrons flow in more easily than out. This may not be a good analogy but it is the one I am working with. Is there a better?
happyjack27 wrote: also some sims did wiffleball, but that's irrelevant.
Really? I didn't see one. Can you link to it please?
+

yes, it's a funnel going from the inside towards the boundary sphere, but going from the outside in, it's a frickin' tornado. and the mag field strength is higher.

consider the idea of "image coils". the wiffleball is a warped mirror - save some geometric transformations (e.g. spherical projections) the field is symmetric on either side of it. but has increasing strength and surface area on the outside.

re: wb: i can really only presume this, from looking at the geometry of the electron core and considering the implications. a fuzzy spherical electron core - though i didn't have a grounded spherical vacumm chamber, so it might not have been perfectly spherical, but making it perfectly spherical would not have changed the logic re: image coils / mirror image / tornados. i.e. as i said it's not relevant.

bear in mind by not relevant i'm not talking about confinement times and all that, it's clearly relevant to that. i'm just saying that it doesn't suddenly make it harder for an electron to get out of the wb than it is for one to get in.
Last edited by happyjack27 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

The funnel analogy is appropriate. The simple 'Wiffle Ball' analogy is simple holes. That are symmetrical on both the inside and outside. It is convenient, but can be misleading. The funnel/ billiard table analogy is closer to reality. A simple bouncing of charged particles off of the mag field edge is convenient though consideration of gyroradii, angle of incidence is even more accurate. A particle can hit the mag field edge at almost any angle less that 180 degrees. If this angle is shallow enough the charged particle (ball) will bounce to the other side of the cusp, bounce again, and progress down the cusp (funnel) until it reaches the mid cusp, then continue on outward. If the ball hits at a more acute angle to the magnetic field surface, it may bounce directly back into the interior or perhaps bounce to the other side of the cusp and then bounce back into the interior. This is again simplified. Mirroring, and inter particle scattering, and the electric charge on the magrid, Gauss Law, ExB drift on the electrons scattered deeper into the magnetic field ( beyond the Wiffleball border) all complicate the picture.

But keeping it simple, the cusp geometry is different on the outside and inside of the magrid and this difference is magnified by the Wiffleball effect. With cusp confinement (no Wiffleball inflation) some of the illustrations show this asymmetric morphology. The fields are pinched towards the center resulting in steeper cusp field lines (steeper funnels). On the outside the field lines curve more gradually( flatter more shallow funnels that flare into greater surface areas in relation to some assigned surface radius. The electrons can bounce off of these more shallow lines and be more likely to bounce back from the cusp or bounce deeper into the cusp - I'm uncertain of the relationship, it may vary depending on the origin radius of the electron. Having the e- guns near to the cusp mid plane (but not too close) and focusing also helps. That is why (I assume) the the positive charge on the symmetrical magrid surfaces are important. They not only accelerate the electrons towards the center, they also focus the electrons towards the central portion of the cusp where the magnetic field quickly drops towards zero so that mirroring is less of an issue (?). If the outside and inside 'holes' had the same geometry and driving forces, there would not be any difference in penetrability. But the geometry is different (I'm unsure of the net effect) and the driving force is different. Outside the electrons are accelerated by the full potential (say 12,000 volts. But, the electrons inside are driven by the space charge represented by the potential well. This is ~ 80 % of the magrid potential (say 10,000 V). As the electron travel inward towards the center of the cusp they are traveling faster, thus tend to mirror less (until their momentum carries them past the midplane of the magrid, and perhaps close to the center. Still, in a collisionless magnatized plasma the cusp penetration may be the same from both directions. But it is not a collisionless plasma. The electrons inside build to much greater densities, so the magnetically driven flight paths are disrupted. And, perhaps more important, because of the magnetic field line compression inside due to the (random to highly radial) paths of the electrons (and ions), the magnetic field is ~ zero within the Wiffleball borders. There are issues with the gryo radius on the inner side of the Wiffleball border inside the machine, and the condition outside the magrid. Mirroring is where the spiraling charged particles reverse their path due to field curvature and strength changes (?). On the inside though, the preferred electron never completes more than one contiguous gryo orbit. Because of the compression of the magnetic field. the gyro radius is very small on the outward side of a Wiffleball bordering field line, but on the inside, the gyro radius may be greater than the radius of the machine. The orbit is very elliptical. Collisional effects greatly dominate over the magnetic effects in this interior region so the gyro radius is insignificant in determining electron trajectories within the Wiffleball border regions. This is not the case outside the machine and this has consequences. I'm unsure of all of the consequences but they are there. One consequence is that the external electrons may mirror back into the cusp and oscillate back and forth. The charge on the magrid (greater and closer to these external electrons than the repulsive potential well) probably decrease the significance of these oscillating electrons. A greater concern may be up scattered electrons trapped on field lines. These possibly travel around the field line without mirroring till they pass the greatest distance from the center of the field line. They are then accelerated towards another cusp and can enter the magrid confined volume at increased energy. This is bad, and Bussard mentioned that these up scattered electrons need to be removed before they can do this (limits on the distance between the magrid and the vacuum vessel walls or other structures).

All of this rambling hopefully demonstrates the extreme complexity of the various interactions in this seemingly simple machine.

The Wiffleball analogy is a gross simplification that is very useful for illustrative purposes but like all simplifications, it has to be used with caution.

Dan Tibbets
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happyjack27
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Post by happyjack27 »

D T: part of the problem, at least as it appeared in my sims, is precisely THAT the electron going from outside toward the WB are accellerating, and precisely THAT they're not so thermalized like they are on the inside of the WB. This leads to a stronger and more focused lorentz force effect, causing them to spiral out faster and faster and farther and farther as they approach the wiffleball.

in other words, the magnetic fields are pulling them off of the center cusp line, and the faster they go and the further of the cusp center they are, the faster they're pulled off.

i would presume things would be in general different once the area outside the wb is sufficiently populated and thermalized. then the effect is different in nature; it becomes gestalt and statistical. the math is different. i.e. you might need recirculation to get an excess electron charge in the wb as much as you need it to increase electron lifetimes. but that's too much sim time for my sim, and i didn't have a grounded chamber in any of the runs so the recirculation orbits were unbounded.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

happyjack27 wrote:D T: part of the problem, at least as it appeared in my sims, is precisely THAT the electron going from outside toward the WB are accellerating, and precisely THAT they're not so thermalized like they are on the inside of the WB. This leads to a stronger and more focused lorentz force effect, causing them to spiral out faster and faster and farther and farther as they approach the wiffleball.

in other words, the magnetic fields are pulling them off of the center cusp line, and the faster they go and the further of the cusp center they are, the faster they're pulled off.

i would presume things would be in general different once the area outside the wb is sufficiently populated and thermalized. then the effect is different in nature; it becomes gestalt and statistical. the math is different. i.e. you might need recirculation to get an excess electron charge in the wb as much as you need it to increase electron lifetimes. but that's too much sim time for my sim, and i didn't have a grounded chamber in any of the runs so the recirculation orbits were unbounded.
A complex problem. I don't think the electrons inside the Wiffleball are fully globally thermalized, that would pretty much exclude the possibility of usefull P-B11 fusion due to bremsstrulung. As I see it the major difference between inside and outside is the much greater B field gradient at the Wiffleball border. This results in very elongated elliptical gryro (or Lorentz) orbit so that essentially on the inside of the Wiffleball border the magnetic characteristics are lost, so that cumulative effects are aborted. It is a different story for electrons that embed furtherinto the magnetic domain due to scattering, but this must make up a small fraction of the total internal electrons or describing it as a non magnetic plasma would be inappropriate. Out side the magnetic field lines are certainly less compressed except for very near the midpoint of the cusp where the field line compression is almost as much as the Wiffleball border regions. Of course the maximum B field compression occurs atthe cusp (mid plane of the magrid radius). The Wiffleball border can approach this compression but not exceed it (Beta slightly less or equal to one )
A question I have is if the opposing B fields decrease to zero between the magnets (I think so). This region is very narrow (~ equal to the electron gyro radius?). The question is if this space is wide enough for magnetic characteristics to be lost. And, would this would cancel any progressive magnetic spiraling?

I admit that I am also uncertain what you mean by increasing spirals, except that as the electrons pick up speed they have wider gyro radii.. My understanding is that a fixed energy charged particle will spiral around a field line at the same gyro radius provided the B field is constant, and that the orbits are more elliptical if there is a significant gradient to the B field. Inside the Wiffleball this more extended portion of the orbit is disrupted because the MFP is shorted than the major radius of the orbit- the electron plasma is not magnatized. With ions, the story is somewhat different because the MFP for them may be greater than the machine radius so the magnetic gyro orbit would dominate over the scattering effects(and ignoring the magnetic anceleing effects of the electron motions). Except the ions are mostly confined electrolytically within the B field free region. Also low energy , high collisionality conditions at the Wiffleball edge results in a local Coulomb collision dominate regon (annealing) that scrambles any lingering magnetic effects on the ions, except those that are knocked deeper into the magnetic domain.

Back to the electrons. Because of the above reasoning, if reasonable :? , The distance over which the electrons accelerate may be very important. The relationship of the electron distance from the cusp at birth (or turn around point for a recirculating electron) is important. If the electron is introduced 1 mm from the cusp and the gyroradius and spiral length is also ~ 1 mm average, then only ~ 1 gyro orbit would be completed before the electron penetrated past the cusp.* Due to the reduced magnetic field on one side (towards the line through the center of the cusp, and local collision effects (that might dominate, or at least contribute) the magnetic spiral progression may be minimized sufficiently. On the other side of the problem is cusp plugging issues which harm ion confinement. Thus a compromise: the electron guns are placed far enough away from the cusp to minimize cusp plugging effects, but close enough that the gradual acceleration associated gryro radius expansion does not compromise injection to much.

The potential well cannot ever reach the potential of the accelerating voltage. Bussard stated that this was due to magnetic interactions. I was (and remain) uncertain of the dynamics of this, but this could be due to this, at least in part. Given a hole in a magnetic field , there is a voltage that will pull the electron in despite any diverting/ turning force that a magnetic force might apply, so long as the hole is large enough to prevent the loss of the electron to a surface. This is why there is spacing between the magnets in WB6 of several electron gyroradii. I'm guessing that this 'resistance' to penitration (the energy nessisary to prevent or delay mirroring) may make upa small to large part of the difference between the potential well depth and the accelerating potential.

The experimental evidence of WB6 (if you accept it)and earlier machines is that electrons are injected into the machine in sufficient quantities and at reasonable efficiency (~ 85%?) to inflate a Wiffleball to near Beta = 1 conditions. Thus the theory or simulation must accommodate this through the above mechanisms or by other means.


* The acceleration rate of the electron is dependent on the starting distance. Due to an aspect of Gauss Law the terminal velocity is independant of the starting distance from the cusp.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

happyjack27
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Post by happyjack27 »

i was going to say that part of the "spiraling" i mentioned is due to the electrons repelling each other - but my electron guns in my sims were firing at a very high rate, and this effect would not be nearly as pronounced at a low rate - and esp. if they travel practically single-file through the cusps.

but really once they leave a "magnetic field line" that goes onto the surface of the wb, they don't go onto its surface. and there is exactly one "magnetic field line" that goes onto the surface. so they're always going to have a small energy gap they need to jump to get in. whether that's done through scattering or gyration or both.

i suppose they can enter the wb with a little excess inertia, it should get scattered out fairly quickly.

still, the way i see it most of those injected electrons are going to spend some time "recirculating" before they make it into the wb.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

My limited understanding of charged particles in a magnetic field is that mirroring (or bouncing may be a more appropriate term) occurs more often where the field is curving quickly(?) or where the field is strengthening. Angles and gyro radii, and field gradients all play a role. With a fixed speed incoming electron, I would expect a lot of mirroring in the cusp region. But this ignores the electrical potential that accelerates the electrons inward. Without Gauss law it would be a wash. But the magrid potential is not seen much . In a completely closed magrid the Gauss law would be absolute. But with the holes there is some leakage . Frequency increases effects this also. But, my assumption is that this leakage in minimal to modest. The space charge inside the machine can be treated as a central point charge and the acceleration of the electrons outward calculated. The magrid charge inside the machine can be ignored, at least to first order considerations. Thus the 'point charge potential well is weaker than the magrid accelerating potential for two reasons. Distance considerations and the 15-20% shortfall in the potential well compared to the magrid. Thus there is always an inward dominate accelerating potential on any electrons outside the magrid. This competes with the mirroring effect of the mag field. This excess inward accelerating potential essentially interrupts the mirroring (to a degree) and combined with the momentum of the electron results in the electron leaving the field line and traveling towards the center. Collisions inside the Wiffleball and in the cusps complicates the issue further. With recirculation (or just escape of electrons) the cusp flows are effected by spiraling, mirroring, magrid acceleration (on the outside), any initial acceleration at the E-gun,, the more distant and weaker potential well space charge, momentum, two stream instabilities(?), focusing effects of the magnetic fields, mid cusp space charge accumulation if there is significant cusp plugging effects, electron- ion local interactions (degree of coupling), energy loss through bremsstrulung and cyclotron radiation, etc...
I'm surprised that many electrons get in at all (deep potential well formation), but if you believe that they are getting Wiffleballs and deep potential wells in their experiments, all the interactions must be be fairly benificial. The net results of various competing forces results in a workable compromise, at least in the smaller machines. I'm willing to bet that Bussard, etel had some math models to fit their findings, and to initially think that such results were possibly. It also seems likely that there is still a lot of permutations that need to be optimized.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

happyjack27 wrote:i was going to say that part of the "spiraling" i mentioned is due to the electrons repelling each other - but my electron guns in my sims were firing at a very high rate, and this effect would not be nearly as pronounced at a low rate - and esp. if they travel practically single-file through the cusps.

but really once they leave a "magnetic field line" that goes onto the surface of the wb, they don't go onto its surface. and there is exactly one "magnetic field line" that goes onto the surface. so they're always going to have a small energy gap they need to jump to get in. whether that's done through scattering or gyration or both.

i suppose they can enter the wb with a little excess inertia, it should get scattered out fairly quickly.

still, the way i see it most of those injected electrons are going to spend some time "recirculating" before they make it into the wb.
Sorry, what you are saying here makes no sense to me. As I asked before, please provide a link to any of your sim that you think shows a wiffleball effect.

My reason for asking is that it may be that you have a complete misunderstanding of the concept. Or I do. :?
I am hoping that an example will be worth 10000 words.

Thanks.

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