Talk-Polywell.org

I have been looking at stuff. And it seems to me that a 3T MRI based continuous operation machine could be built for around $15 to $20 million.

1. 3T MRI Magnets plus all supporting eqpt. $3 million.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mitr-crtim ... 00286.html

The cost will become very important since it will be compared with the top-of-the-line 1.5-tesla systems currently in all major hospitals in North America and Europe. The cost of a 3-tesla whole body system is more than US$3 million. The cost for the other systems is even higher. Most of the ultra-high systems, more than 5 tesla, have been integrated by the researcher group, who bought a magnet from Magnex and electronics from companies such as Varian and Bruker. An interesting development is the apparent involvement of Siemens in the 7-tesla system at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.

2. 100 KV 20 Amp variable power supply - $5 million

that is 20 MW @ $.25 a watt = $5 million

http://www.divtecs.com/

3. Vacuum Chamber and Aux Eqpt. - $4 million

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We could scale the magnets down to 1 or 1.5 T for some cost reduction. Which will cost us about a factor of 100 in power out. It may not matter.

If we run D-D with the neutron flux = to 100 MWf power the coils might last an hour or two until loss of superconductivity. At 1 MWf that could translate into 50 hours of operation.

That is 18,000 10 second pulses.

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4. Radiation Shielding - $3 million

This could be high or low. Any thoughts?

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5. Mad Money - $2 million

For anything unexpected.

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1. 3T MRI Magnets plus all supporting eqpt. $3 million.

2. 100 KV 20 Amp variable power supply - $5 million

3. Vacuum Chamber and Aux Eqpt. - $4 million

4. Radiation Shielding - $3 million

5. Mad Money - $2 million

That is $17 million total This is a bottom of my pants (BOP) estimate and worth every penny you paid for it. Any one else have some better estimates?

Add approx. 50% admin. costs if done inside state Univ. or research lab system ... i.e. Sandia, Livermore, etc.

This is the standard admin. mark-up for these jobsworth shops, from experience.

This is only the parts and does not include the labor...
Not that engineers earn that much
Maybe the engineers are covered by "crazy money"?
I would wonder whether those MRI- magnets can not be aquired for cheaper also. Maybe some old used MRI- scanners?

So my thinking is to ask for $40 million.

Skipjack wrote:This is only the parts and does not include the labor...
Not that engineers earn that much ;)
Maybe the engineers are covered by "crazy money"? ;)
I would wonder whether those MRI- magnets can not be aquired for cheaper also. Maybe some old used MRI- scanners?

Used MRI magnets would be in the 1T to 1.5T range. So yeah. Maybe. I was including cryocoolers with the machine. Leave out the table and the MRI electronics. Substitute cryocoolers. Also throw out the coverings etc. Might come in for less.

Experimental MRI machines with 10T magnets are being built.

Labor budget for the project might run as much as $2 million a year. With a lot of that contracted out.

MSimon wrote:So my thinking is to ask for $40 million.

So how much can we get the various suppliers to "invest" in order to obtain the ARPA-E funding? Given the state of the economy, will they kick in 30% to 50% of the price of their equipment? The max amount of ARPA-E funding was smaller than the $40M shown.

Otherwise, who gets "asked" for the money?

KitemanSA wrote:

MSimon wrote:So my thinking is to ask for $40 million.

So how much can we get the various suppliers to "invest" in order to obtain the ARPA-E funding? Given the state of the economy, will they kick in 30% to 50% of the price of their equipment? The max amount of ARPA-E funding was smaller than the $40M shown.

Otherwise, who gets "asked" for the money?

Yeah. That is one way to go. I like being able to offer top dollar for superior service - i.e. I want to be able to jump to the head of the line. I want the deal to be profitable. A happy supplier is easier to deal with. We shouldn't make them too happy though.

Who gets asked? Who ever. Since it is a Navy Project how about more Navy funds?

Labour costs: I would go for two teams of 5 at most 6 people. Get the best going for all positions, annual wage cost estimate $2.5-3million.

Maybe the US Navy has a secret Mahatten type polywell program going on and the whole shovel ready $2 million is a front to maintain a 4 year head start.

Maybe the US Navy has a secret Mahatten type polywell program going on and the whole shovel ready $2 million is a front to maintain a 4 year head start.

It is a possibility .... but would require top brass to be able to get their heads around what is/isn't feasible. Those kind of people haven't been top brass for about 20-30 years in USA (Teller, Oppenheimer, von Braun, etc).

It needs another war/societal threat climate to bring them out, just political animals in the zoo at the moment.

MSimon:

What would be the size and expected output of your proposal, in comparison to WB7?

MSimon wrote:1. 3T MRI Magnets plus all supporting eqpt. $3 million.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mitr-crtim ... 00286.html

The cost will become very important since it will be compared with the top-of-the-line 1.5-tesla systems currently in all major hospitals in North America and Europe. The cost of a 3-tesla whole body system is more than US$3 million. The cost for the other systems is even higher. Most of the ultra-high systems, more than 5 tesla, have been integrated by the researcher group, who bought a magnet from Magnex and electronics from companies such as Varian and Bruker. An interesting development is the apparent involvement of Siemens in the 7-tesla system at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.

By this, it seems that you think the magnet will cost about 1/6th of the entir/ MRI system (6 MIR magnets cost the same as 1 MRI system). Is there a basis for this?

So, seeing as the WB's so far only work for microseconds anyway, why not use permanent magnets to gain better and more efficient demonstrations?

If Dan Tibbets can do it, why can't EMC2??....

viewtopic.php?t=1081

License from EMC2?

JohnP wrote:License from EMC2?

They should be grateful for all the amateur help they can get!!

Besides, if they can prove Dan's effort contains ions in the manner of their patent*, whilst they cannot prove it in their own experiments, then a court case is the least of their issues!!!

*[which it won't likely anyway, as Dan's has a central electrode]