Muslims calling for the Death of all Athiests.

[Stubby]

There are already efforts underway to force Churches to perform homosexual weddings, to categorize the dogmas of faiths that don't kill people en masse as hate speech, etc. The ratchet only turns Left.

Government should not have any influence on what ceremonies a church performs.
Which people are making efforts to force a church to perform a homosexual wedding? I know of a lot of stupid people from the right that say it 'could happen' and a lot of fundamentalist websites saying the same thing. These are just scare tactics like going to hell is a scare tactic.

You would have to repeal the 1st amendment to do that. And that won't happen.

[KitemanSA]

You would have to repeal the 1st amendment to do that. And that won't happen.

Actually, all you would have to do is threaten to repeal their 501c(3) status and most will cave.

[Stubby]

501(c)(3)? (EDIT. Thanks for editing your post above from 401c3 to what it is now)

They should lose their automatic exemption.
If they do work that qualifies like any other charity, they can file a 1023 like every other charity and receive 501(c)(3) status.
Of course they won't want that, since it would open a huge can of worms. They definitely don't want to disclose their financials like all other major 501(c)(3) charities currently do.
And we all know it is a multi-billion dollar business.

[Teahive]

Saying atheism is the religion of atheists is like saying broccoli is the pork of vegetarians.

Evangelical Atheists are like homosexual activists. They aren't content to just do their own thing, they want to force everyone else to acknowledge them and agree with them.

There are plenty of evangelical people with all kinds of views around. Of course for those on the other side their conduct is always obnoxious. Sometimes even for those on the same side.

Atheism is not a religion in the same way theism is not a religion. But if you take religion as Haidt (based on Durkheim) understands it then there are atheistic religions. And to achieve their purpose in that sense they need to get the word out and spread.

That their very existence is a testament to the freedom created by Christianity and Western thought, never seems to occur to them.

Interesting claim, but if it seems that way to you then what kind of signal are you looking for as indication that it does occur to them?

[Diogenes]

Evangelical Atheists are like homosexual activists. They aren't content to just do their own thing, they want to force everyone else to acknowledge them and agree with them.

There are plenty of evangelical people with all kinds of views around. Of course for those on the other side their conduct is always obnoxious. Sometimes even for those on the same side.

I am an agnostic. I have come to regard the notion of there being a deity which oversees the past the future and the afterlife as being pretty much a story people made up to make their children behave. I call it the "Santa Claus effect". I see the "Santa Claus effect" has having a beneficial influence, the results of which are not dependent upon the stories being true. In simple terms, it is a highly useful lie.


I see evangelical atheists as being short sighted meddlers who don't realize they are screwing up a good thing and that it will likely be replaced with something much worse. Imagine an explorer who saves his life by displaying a lit lighter to cannibals who have surrounded him. Telling them that it isn't magic is the height of stupidity.

Atheism is not a religion in the same way theism is not a religion. But if you take religion as Haidt (based on Durkheim) understands it then there are atheistic religions. And to achieve their purpose in that sense they need to get the word out and spread.

It is a jungle of memes out there. The Atheist meme is like a malarial mosquito. It might be able to kill the Christian religion, but the violent ones are immune to it. It is in the Atheist Mosquito's best interest to persist in it's feeding off the benign host, because the other one will swat it. Not too clever are these mosquitoes though.

That their very existence is a testament to the freedom created by Christianity and Western thought, never seems to occur to them.

Interesting claim, but if it seems that way to you then what kind of signal are you looking for as indication that it does occur to them?

Men in the confidence game don't give it away. Boobs do that.





Yes George, and we should be d@mned glad that it works. It has it's faults, but it mitigates the worst aspects of human behavior.



(edited to fix the George Carlin image because the website which was hosting it had to act like a prick.)

[Stubby]

If the fear of eternal torture or the reward of everlasting life are the only things keeping religious people from being savages, maybe they should re-examine their reasons for being moral.

[rj40]

Thank God I'm an atheist. Well, agnostic actually. I mean, I could be. But maybe not. Oh I don't know.

At any rate, it doesn't feel to me that a fear of God or reward in a heaven is controlling my actions. I am not consciously making my decisions based on that. I seem to be doing ok. I follow the law, dont cheat on the spouse, generally drive the speed limit and avoid things that parts of the Torah, Bible and, I think, Koran say are bad. I think I might follow some Buddhist rules tyoo. All accidentally as far as I know.

So if I can do that, why not more people?

"But he left Marduk out." - Carl Sagan in Cosmos

[quixote]

If the fear of eternal torture or the reward of everlasting life are the only things keeping religious people from being savages, maybe they should re-examine their reasons for being moral.

Have you considered the logic of this statement? If the fear of eternal torture or the reward of everlasting life are the only things keeping religious people from being savages, are you sure you want them to reconsider their reasons for being moral?

[Stubby]

Yes I do. Being religious does not make you moral anymore than atheism makes you moral.
Is the only thing keeping you from murdering someone the law against murder? Don't you think you could have figured out on your own that murder is bad?

[Diogenes]

If the fear of eternal torture or the reward of everlasting life are the only things keeping religious people from being savages, maybe they should re-examine their reasons for being moral.

I can always expect you to say something that I regard as colossally stupid. You really are way out of your league in these discussions.


Humans are what they ARE. Wishing for a better human is futile and stupid. You don't get a choice between "re-examining their reasons for being moral" and "being savages." The fact of the matter is, we ARE savages.


Religion works because it appeals to a savage mind. Intellectualism is only a surface veneer. When you make an argument from an intellectual basis which contradicts emotional instinct, the emotional instinct always wins. Religion works because it appeals to a fundamental characteristic that is inherent in all people. The Alpha Dog instinct.

You can bitch that you don't like this, but it is the timber from which human society is built. There is a REASON why all past governments were monarchies.


Figure. It. Out.

[Diogenes]

Thank God I'm an atheist. Well, agnostic actually. I mean, I could be. But maybe not. Oh I don't know.

At any rate, it doesn't feel to me that a fear of God or reward in a heaven is controlling my actions.

Were everyone on the planet like you, you would have a point. The fact of the matter is that huge swaths of the population are domesticated from savagery only through their belief in this concept. Take a look at Pre-Christian history.

I am not consciously making my decisions based on that. I seem to be doing ok. I follow the law, dont cheat on the spouse, generally drive the speed limit and avoid things that parts of the Torah, Bible and, I think, Koran say are bad. I think I might follow some Buddhist rules tyoo. All accidentally as far as I know.

And you highlight a point I struggle to convey. You are CONTAMINATED with Christian doctrine and philosophy. That you reject the basis of it is irrelevant to the fact that you tacitly accept it's conclusions without accepting it's initial conjecture. You are first generation and floating in an ocean of Christian social philosophy and custom.

What happens when the second generation does not recognize the basis for adhering to subjective rules such as "the law" ?

So if I can do that, why not more people?

"But he left Marduk out." - Carl Sagan in Cosmos

If some of us can ride in the wagon, why can't all?

[Diogenes]

Yes I do. Being religious does not make you moral anymore than atheism makes you moral.

I do not believe atheism makes you moral. Past experience demonstrates that it justifies the genocide of humanity's eugenics period of history. What they did was entirely scientific and logical.


What makes you think being religious does not make you moral? (Meaning adhering to a certain code of conduct.) As near as I can determine, it is an essential component for otherwise savage humans. A Social consensus must be formed around a set of ideas, and a means of negative feedback must be created to keep the system stable. Religion accomplishes this well.

Is the only thing keeping you from murdering someone the law against murder?

The entire legal system is based on the concept of "deterrence." From Assault to Murder, the system operates under the assumption that punishment causes others not to commit the crime. The recognition of potential future punishment is the negative feedback system for deterring crime in the present. Remove the punishment as a component and you have cut the feedback loop.

Don't you think you could have figured out on your own that murder is bad?

No. Murder is not bad. Murder is often very good in fact. Much of human history is all about how certain people need to be murdered. In fact, humans are so fond of the idea of murdering other humans and taking their stuff that it requires a great deal of conditioning to convince them not to do it, and even then, some of them do it anyway.


You postulate your own opinions as objective, rather than subjective, and this is why you cannot comprehend a system in which not everyone thinks as do you. The word is "naive."

[paperburn1]

Define: kill, to take a life
Define : murder the unlawful taking of life.
useage is NOT interchangeable or confusion will rule.

[Teahive]

I am an agnostic. I have come to regard the notion of there being a deity which oversees the past the future and the afterlife as being pretty much a story people made up to make their children behave. I call it the "Santa Claus effect". I see the "Santa Claus effect" has having a beneficial influence, the results of which are not dependent upon the stories being true. In simple terms, it is a highly useful lie.

Yes, but you're forgetting the part where children are expected to grow up and stop believing in Santa. That part is useful, too.

Atheism is not a religion in the same way theism is not a religion. But if you take religion as Haidt (based on Durkheim) understands it then there are atheistic religions. And to achieve their purpose in that sense they need to get the word out and spread.

It is a jungle of memes out there. The Atheist meme is like a malarial mosquito. It might be able to kill the Christian religion, but the violent ones are immune to it. It is in the Atheist Mosquito's best interest to persist in it's feeding off the benign host, because the other one will swat it. Not too clever are these mosquitoes though.

Except atheism is nothing like a mosquito. It obviously clashes with theistic memes (which most "Western/Christian" memes aren't), but it's not defenseless against those. That said, atheism may have to develop stronger group bonding (the "atheistic religions" I mentioned above) to be successful long-term.

That their very existence is a testament to the freedom created by Christianity and Western thought, never seems to occur to them.

Interesting claim, but if it seems that way to you then what kind of signal are you looking for as indication that it does occur to them?

Men in the confidence game don't give it away. Boobs do that.

Are you saying that the reason you're not answering my question is that you're "in the confidence game"?

[Teahive]

Religion works because it appeals to a savage mind. Intellectualism is only a surface veneer. When you make an argument from an intellectual basis which contradicts emotional instinct, the emotional instinct always wins.

Yet instinct and intuition can be overcome and replaced with new intuitions derived from rational thought. It doesn't happen frequently, and it's a drawn-out process with high barriers, which is probably a good thing. But our ability to reason serves a real purpose, too. It's more than a surface veneer.