Healthcare & rationing

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:49 am

choff wrote:First off, I must apologize for quoting MSimon without followup. I tried to find the original thread, I believe it was during the height of the financial crisis, and I knew we would eventually have another debate on health care costs. When I tried to find it I discovered just how much material there was to search through in 2 to 3 months. It could very well have been someone MSimon was debating at the time.

No sweat. I can't even be sure I didn't say it. However, given my philosophical bent it seems unlikely.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:10 am

Why reforming the legal system (a little) is not part of the medical care bill.

Video:
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=Gd8zprIrSU

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:42 am

You claimed the financial crisis was America's fault.

It is to a large extent. Everyone knows that, well other than you of course... Of course our banks were at fault too, they were stupid enough to give your banks credit here....

You should learn some relevant statistics. You don't seem to understand the difference between fact and opinion.

Ahem, you were the one who was bending statistics and their value to this discussion to his liking. Even though the cancer survival rates were not that comparable either, as I mentioned before.

I'm happy right here in the best country in the world. If the rest of the world gets better maybe it will be worth visiting someday. You can start with yourself.

I dont argue about the US being the best country in the world, but at the moment it is not the best for everyone.
The world has never been better. I have been to many countries including the US (for a total of 9 months so far).
My wife is a US citizen and has been living with me in Austria for almost 4 years now. She too sees the differences and the advantages of our social system.
And again, I am not saying that our system is ideal. There is a lot of abuse and it is more expensive than it could be. My wife sees these problems too and we both dont like that.
I sure hate paying for some drug addicts rehab, e.g. I also dont like that I have to pay for retirement and that I (now even as a self employed person) pay for unemployment insurance. That is no different in the US though, where you have to givre 12.5% of your income to a social security system that gives you very little in return. For some reason they do that better here and maybe the incapability of your government in this matter, is the reason why people in the US are so averse to government healthcare.
Still, I do not like that we here have to pay 16% of our income into a social security network.
For that I am one of the hardest critics of our system. I do also think that the 7.6% for health insurance is to much. This number could be much lower, if management at the government health insurance was more competent and less political.
I also find it stupid that insurance is mandatory. Especially in regards to social insurance, I dont see any reason. As a self employed, I have very little benefits anyway and I dont really need them either. Also private insurances for this would probably be cheaper.
Again, I have had many heated political discussions with people here, where I critizised these things quite harshly.
Even with all its flaws though, our system is (and that came as a total surprise to me when I did the math) less expensive than yours, for the largest part of the population anyway (if you assume that everyone wants to be insured somehow).

The reason is that insurance companies in the US are able to do with people whatever they want. You are older than 35, you pay more. You had a heart attack, we dont even want to insure you at all (and if, then you might want to consider paying your healthbills yourself instead, that will be cheaper). You lost your job, there goes your health insurance for you and your family... nice. You are sick and you lost your job? Bad luck man, just go and die already!
Personally I find this kind of treatment inhumane and not worthy of a country that claims to be the best country in the world.

I'm fine with a private system. It needs two important features, however:

1) If you sell insurance, you sell it to everyone irrespective of their condition, everyone pays the same price, and the insurer cannot unilateral cancel because of a health related event.

2) Pricing for life-critical goods and services need to be controlled to account for the fact that there is no elasticity of demand for them.

That would be a good start. I also want to add, that health insurance should not be tied to employment at a certain company. This is particularily important for freelancers and people that are hired on a per job basis. This is something that is very common these days.
There has to be a pricing limit set by the government on how expensive a health insurance can get for an individual. Age should also be irrelevant, or otherwise you will end up with a whole lot of uninsured elderly.

I also think that there has to be a set of rules as to what an insurance company has to at least pay for. So they cant swindle their way out of a contract, something that happens quite often (the fine print, you know).

gblaze42 · Post by **gblaze42** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:48 pm

Skipjack wrote: That is no different in the US though, where you have to give 12.5% of your income to a social security system that gives you very little in return. For some reason they do that better here and maybe the incapability of your government in this matter, is the reason why people in the US are so averse to government health-care.

This is where you don't understand us. Most of the people in the US do not like having the government to have that much control over whats best for us, we want to our lives in our own hands. I think thats difficult for most people from socialist countries to understand, why we would not have that government "security blanket".
Speaking as an outsider, most people in the US are appalled at giving that much control of their lives over to government.

It's arrogance to think that the US should have socialized medicine because most European countries have it.
We live in the most technically advanced country with cutting edge medicine, we have to make allowances for that, and that I'm willing to do.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:06 pm

Well, healthservices in the US are not the best, neither is coverage, actually. Dont think of Canada when thinking of public healthcare. They dont fare very well in international comparison.

As I said, I dont like spending money on social security, BUT THE US REQUIRES 12.5% of my income to go to social security. With very little benefit from that. Given that, I can see why you dont like it.

I also DO NOT LIKE anything to be mandatory. This is a problem in our system and I would much prefer the freedom of choice here.
This works very well in Germany where you have the choice between private and public health insurance.

Btw, I am not sure whether

Most of the people in the US do not like having the government to have that much control over whats best for us

is that applicable to healthcare. Clearly the majority voted for Obama, who seems to have a rather reasonable idea in regards to healthcare (public healthcare for those that want it).

I have also compiled some more reading material for you:
http://www.soa.org/files/pdf/027bk_rev-health06.pdf
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ ... 053503.htm

Just so you undertand: in Austria I am considered on the right of the political spectrum, but geee, here I feel like a commie (which I am absolutely not, not even a socialist)

gblaze42 · Post by **gblaze42** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:11 pm

Btw, I am not sure whether
Most of the people in the US do not like having the government to have that much control over whats best for us

is that applicable to healthcare. Clearly the majority voted for Obama, who seems to have a rather reasonable idea in regards to healthcare (public healthcare for those that want it).

Well thats a whole another ball of wax, IMHO people in the US fall for the marketing ploy, after all the guys is more about appearances, in my opinion.

In all this I think I've come up with the best way to handle medical reform here in the US. Since 80% of the medical and biotechnology advances and R&D in the world comes from the US, we need to charge every nation that uses our medical technology. Man I love that idea.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:18 pm

Hmm, 80%?
Where does that number come from?
I kinda doubt that Bayer, imuno AG, Pasteur institute, Hoffman La Roche, Siemens, Toshiba, Philips, all the medical university institutes in Europe and all those that I cant think of at the moment, make only 20%, but hey I might actually be wrong here. Plus China is meanwhile world leader in stem cell research and therapies.

gblaze42 · Post by **gblaze42** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:34 pm

Skipjack wrote:Hmm, 80%?
Where does that number come from?
I kinda doubt that Bayer, imuno AG, Pasteur institute, Hoffman La Roche, Siemens, Toshiba, Philips, all the medical university institutes in Europe and all those that I cant think of at the moment, make only 20%, but hey I might actually be wrong here. Plus China is meanwhile world leader in stem cell research and therapies.

Here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_car ... ted_States

and I quote;

In 2006, the United States accounted for three quarters of the world’s biotechnology revenues and 82% of world R&D spending in biotechnology.[7] [9]. The amount of financing by private industry has increased 102% from 1994 to 2003.[21] Most medical research is privately funded. As of 2003, the NIH was responsible for 28%—about $28 billion—of the total biomedical research funding spent annually in the U.S., with most of the rest coming from industry.[22] The National Institutes of Health play a larger role in funding basic research.[citation needed]

But then we wouldn't be if we went the route of socialism, we would be much like Europe then, sad but true.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:24 pm

Very well, I cant really disarm this at the moment.
I would adise on reading the rest of the article too. E.g. that because of uninsured people, many hospitals go uncompensated for emergency treatments. The parapraphs about people being uninsurable. The rating by the WHO and so many other things in there that are of interest for this discussion.
Also, dont underestimate European science. If you were to charge us for as you are planning we would quickly compensate with our own developments.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:20 pm

It is to a large extent. Everyone knows that, well other than you of course... Of course our banks were at fault too, they were stupid enough to give your banks credit here....

Sigh, try to follow the thread. You claimed it was all our fault, I pointed out a major problem that had nothing to do with America, you asked what the hell I was talking about, I explained, you reply with... that.

I also DO NOT LIKE anything to be mandatory.

/facepalm. How do you think "public" health care is paid for?

Ahem, you were the one who was bending statistics and their value to this discussion to his liking.

I have posted numerous relevant statistics and noted why some other are not very relevant. You have posted the usual flawed arguments about LE and IM that socialists always fall back on because their outcome numbers are so much worse.

It's eminently obvious to anyone willing to look at the facts that U.S. healthcare is superior. IM and LE are far less likely to predict medical quality than medical outcomes.

Since in the US you dont have to name your adress to the government (whereas in Europe you have to), the US statistics could be looking a lot better than they actually are, for reasons named right there.

This is so egregiously stupid and displays such ignorance of how U.S. medical statistics are collected I can only laugh (we are talking about almost the only country in the world that records all live births as such). There are VERY strict guidelines as to how patient outcomes are calculated. We do more clinical studies at our top 5 hospitals than any other entire country, Also, the report's objections were to comparisons across Europe, not to American statistics. If anything, this problem is making American statistics look worse.

Yet you dismiss my statistics and only count yours.

And just because mine actually have some relevance. So unfair.

The funny thing is that I am not even biased.

Heh. That is funny.

Neither is ours, but at the moment healthcare in the US is inferior.

Nope. U.S. healthcare is FAR superior to any country in Europe.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:41 pm

Also, dont underestimate European science. If you were to charge us for as you are planning we would quickly compensate with our own developments.

You develop them already, you just expect us to pay for them. If we didn't pay for them, you wouldn't have them at all. There wouldn't be a market profitable enough to pay for the massive R&D.

Again, you Europeans often collectively don't seem to understand economics. I guess that's why Communism caught on over there.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:24 pm

Please believe whatever you want. I am so outa here.
Yes, yes the US is superior to the rest of the world in anything and everything. You are the gods we all look up to. You deserve to rule the world. We all bow in front of you.
Good lord, I cant believe you guys, really. Never seen anything never been anywhere, but think they know it all and rule it all.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:45 pm

Don't blame us, blame the facts.

Never seen anything never been anywhere,

Generally not necessary in the age of the Internet. Anyways you can travel pretty far in the U.S. without leaving your country.

And other places, they want you to get all these shots first. That can't be a good sign.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:53 pm

Actually it is recommended for us Austrians to get shots prior to traveling to the southern US...

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:00 pm

To Austria too.

http://www.iamat.org/country_profile.cfm?id=200

They appear to be recommended pretty much everywhere you go.

Oh well, at least we got Hayek for a little while. Clearly he was wasted on you guys.