America's future

[Jccarlton]

Voting Democratic has become the same thing as commiting national suicide. I can't see how anybody who believes in liberty would ever vote Democrat ever again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PblVo9y735k

The democrats are no longer acting in the best interest of anything but the further assertion of their own power

[chrismb]

I did watch this one [I must be bored/tired...] and though you have few argument from me over socialism's ills, this takes it a bit far with intermixing Hitler giving a speech with democrats giving a speech, which is silly and takes away from the message.

The problem with socialism is that there is a christian desire in the western world to do right by all people. This makes socialism and the politics of the left very appealing to many people. Usually, it is the young who have not had real life experience that support the left.

Unfortunately, many [an increasing number?] adults seems to have far less hardship these days and this appears to equate directly to 'less life experience'. As a result, many who seem rational on the surface cannot take they rationality to the final degree and realise there may be an ultimate harm to society by trying to equalise everything for everybody. Many things which lead to an immediate benefit ultimately lead to a deficit in the long run. Socialists hope to keep re-initiating the system so that we keep getting the immediate benefits without regard for the long term impact.

Socialism is like a loan in units of people's ease-of-life. You can get reduced rates in the first few years, but it comes back to bite later on. The connection with money is obvious. As Thatcher once said "Socialism is a great idea, but unfortunately you eventually run out of spending other people's money".

That being said, socialism is clearly in the direction of communism, but it is not communism. Socialism is like a Chernobyl reactor; if you keep the controls balanced finely then you will get a positive benefit, but you are risking a melt-down. Some countries have run socialism very well for several decades with no ill effects. Indeed, quite the opposite. The Scandinavian countries have done very well with it, but it takes a cool head and a strong sense of social duty that, dare I say it, seems rather unique to northern-most Europeans. I think it is to do with the outright evolved need to plan for the future, because if they did not then they would die off each winter. Perhaps it is actually an evolutionary thing that gives them such well-balanced demeanour that they can make socialism work, because for sure it takes everyone to pull the same way to make it work, and that is just against human nature [on the whole] unless you come from an environment that is so harsh that unless you work together then you die.

I've never heard anyone else ever say this, but I always add: The Berlin wall came down, but which way did it fall? [Indeed, who pushed it over?]

[mdeminico]

The problem with socialism is that there is a christian desire in the western world to do right by all people. This makes socialism and the politics of the left very appealing to many people. Usually, it is the young who have not had real life experience that support the left.

I never understood why Christians could jump on the Socialist bandwagon... "[they say] throw in your lot with us, and we will share a common purse. My son, do not go along with them, do not set foot on their paths; for their feet rush into sin, they are swift to shed blood." Proverbs 1:14-16

Solomon slammed socialism/communism millennia ago. And yet many large churches support it.

And on the other topic you mentioned...

Socialism IS Communism, it is simply a baby version of it. It's like a baby skunk, it's still a skunk, and it's GOING to grow up into an adult skunk unless it dies.

Here's what happens:

- Socialism destroys a portion of wealth, and there is always more "programs" for socialist nations to "solve".
- The more of these they do, the more money they need to confiscate from the people.
- Sooner or later some of the people will stand up and say "This is ridiculous. You can not take any more of our money".
- At this point the system faces a revolt from two directions:
1) It must stop paying some of the "benefits" it promised to the entitlement-minded lackeys. Entitlement-minded lackeys tend to be violent when you "steal" from them (ironically they call it stealing when you stop giving them something you stole from someone else...)
2) It must continue to take more from those who stood up and said "no more". If they refuse to hand over their money, the government must then confiscate it by force. Hello Communism.

[rjaypeters]

Don't think the Lord is all that happy with Capitalism either. The Old Testament contains prohibitions against charging interest. OTOH, the New Testament has parables about wisely using interest...

Anyone for the years of Jubilee every seven and forty-nine years?

[KitemanSA]

Don't think the Lord is all that happy with Capitalism either. The Old Testament contains prohibitions against charging interest.

Where?

Never mind, I found several but notice that a number of bibles use the term "usury" rather than "interest". One wonders if the terms had distinct meanings BEFORE the Catholic prohibition against ANY interest or whether "usrury" simpy meant "charging interest". I note that even in the Old Testiment, there was no prohibition against the charging of interest, simply to the charging of interest to Isrealites. Seems usury on the goyem was ok. One wonders why so many folks hated Jews for so many years.

Also, most if not all of the prohibitions against usury was if loaning to the poor. Hmmm.

[rjaypeters]

The charging of interest (or the prohibition against) is interesting (no pun intended, sorry). Edit: But the real fun is in the years of Jubilee, where you give back the land, among other things, you have acquired.

I don't remember the exact extent of the give-backs. Every seven years is one level and every forty-nine a much more extensive give-back.

Very irritating to buy a piece of land and then have to give it back the next year! I can hear the Capitalists grinding their teeth.

[mdeminico]

Don't think the Lord is all that happy with Capitalism either. The Old Testament contains prohibitions against charging interest. OTOH, the New Testament has parables about wisely using interest...

Anyone for the years of Jubilee every seven and forty-nine years?

Usury. not interest. Aka excessive interest was forbidden (akin to taking advantage of someone's plight)

[rjaypeters]

Usury. not interest. Aka excessive interest was forbidden (akin to taking advantage of someone's plight)

Translation dependent, see KitmanSA'a comments. Also, define "excessive." I bet it's right next to "reasonable" and "in the eye of the beholder."

No takers on the years of Jubilee? Certainly if the Lord wanted us to keep all our cool stuff there wouldn't be such a thing as a year of Jubilee.

[djolds1]

Voting Democratic has become the same thing as commiting national suicide. I can't see how anybody who believes in liberty would ever vote Democrat ever again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PblVo9y735k

The democrats are no longer acting in the best interest of anything but the further assertion of their own power

The probable reality of America's future? See:

http://www.johnreilly.info/cont.htm

Britain, France and the Low countries play Athens, Sparta, and the Greek Polises; the powers that get a civilization moving.
Germany plays Epirus (as in Pyrrhus of Epirus); one of the candidate marcher states for Imperial Core.
The US & Russia play Rome and Carthage.

And thus far we are only to the Second Punic War. Russia has not yet been crushed far enough to admit to itself that it is out of the Empire Game.

[rjaypeters]

The Philospher asks: "How much is enough?"

The Free-Market Capitalist answers: "Enough? What is that?"

[KitemanSA]

IIRC, the old testiment was originally written in Acadian. Anyone know the word(s) in Acadian and how they best translate?

[chrismb]

I never understood why Christians could jump on the Socialist bandwagon...

Socialism relates to Christianity not by the consideration of money, but by the consideration of welfare for others.

Now, you and I are both pretty sure that a not inconsiderable fraction of socialist politicians are in it [up to their trotters] for their own gains, be those financial or just some lust for power that normal folks find sick, and that the reality of socialism is the same as power struggles, history over, have always been.

But the essence of left-wing is that everyone has a role to play in helping the weaker members of society, whereas the right-wing is Adams-ian and recognises that by primarily helping yourself that you a) pull everyone else up by their bootstraps, and b) that by getting yourself comfy, you are then able to not only use your own money to help others but you can then leverage help from others.

Like I say, giving your house away to a homeless person just as you are going on a month long vacation is, for a month at least, of net benefit to all, but you are storing up a slight problem for later! Thus it is that Adams revelation that thinking of your own consumer interests helps society generally is the long-term beneficial manifestation of self-interest, but those myopic enough will think that helping others, by imposed detriment on those in a well-managed and financially stable state, is a good thing.

Bear in mind that, much as the West would have you think otherwise, the majority of people in the Communist block felt reassured and comforted by an authoritarian communist state, and many would seek to go back to those times. For the larger majority of the population, communism would look like it does quite well for them. Obviously, here on a forum where people go out of their way to express their opinions, such folks as us would be entirely resentful of such a state. But we are in the minority, brother!!

So, comrades, political choices are personal choices. You can argue one way or the other. But, personally speaking, I stand on the side I have stated here; to fail to recognise the truth of Adams revelation, that self-interest promotes the best long-term social gains, is myopic.

[rjaypeters]

self-interest promotes the best long-term social gains

And I will agree with the quote as long as you agree to put "Sometimes" in front of the quote. I don't really have a problem with the quote, except the narrow-minded prefer to use limited quotes out of context and proclaim almost unlimited applicability. The quotation might come to mean for some: "self-interest out-weighs the best long-term social gains."

But I don't mean to triffle.

We also need to think about what self-interest means.

[chrismb]

I defer to your opinion. Looking it up, Adam Smith [sorry, I was using his first name above! How impolite!]* used the term 'frequently promotes';

By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it .

*{sorry, I actually confused him with his Scottish fellow-national, the architect 'Adam'}

[mdeminico]

I never understood why Christians could jump on the Socialist bandwagon...

Socialism relates to Christianity not by the consideration of money, but by the consideration of welfare for others.

Christians are concerned with the welfare of others in that THEY personally are responsible for taking care of others. They are forbidden (by their sense of Justice) to force *someone else* to give their money to help others.

Similarly, Christians are discouraged from being "enablers". That means they should not enable someone to continue in bad behavior (aka someone who's not doing *all they can* to stand on their own).

Compassion for others, yes.
Enabling bad behavior, no.
Performing injustice to help others? No.

Bear in mind that, much as the West would have you think otherwise, the majority of people in the Communist block felt reassured and comforted by an authoritarian communist state, and many would seek to go back to those times. For the larger majority of the population, communism would look like it does quite well for them. Obviously, here on a forum where people go out of their way to express their opinions, such folks as us would be entirely resentful of such a state. But we are in the minority, brother!!

Literally five minutes ago I was just reading a book by Richard Wurmbrand, who spent 14 years in a Communist prison in Romania, and prior to that, spent years working secretly to share the Gospel to Communist soldiers and citizens in Romania.

His book tells a much different story than you say. These people were brainwashed into thinking that the state provided them security, so much so that they began to believe it. When they were confronted with truth, they wept openly for a moment, and then were forced to hide it again lest they were caught.

self-interest promotes the best long-term social gains

I think we agree on this point at least.