So, does this mean we can declare victory in Afghanistan and leave?
Regards,
M.R.F.
Osoma Bin Laden is dead
Like me saying I didn't torture anyone.Skipjack wrote:Ah really, what exactly have I done?We are the targets because of YOU.
No, what I was doing was pointing out that YOU are responsible for OUR position - targets of terrorists. YOU plural. Your country.Skipjack wrote: I was born 30 years after WW2. My father was born right at the end of it. Neither of us had anything to do with what happened in Austria and Germany during WW2.
What YOU are doing is called "kin liability", something the Nazis did as well, only that YOU are actually taking it to extremes that would make the Nazis jealous.
You may have never claimed it previously, but it was implied, as evidenced by your claiming it right now - "evolved our moral understanding".Skipjack wrote: Also, I never claimed to have a morale upper stance. However the US is very keen on educating the rest of the world on human rights and moral standards. If you do that, you have to be extra clean.
I any case, MY country has not seen anything like Guatanamo in 65 years. We kinda managed to evolve our moral understanding. How about YOU?
In my mind, your moral understanding evolved from 'its OK to kill millions of Jews' to 'we are neutral and don't get involved in anything'. Some evolution.
Regardless, you ignored the main point of my post. Our predicament (targets of terrorism) has made us make hard choices (dunking prisoners in water) as a result of your actions (genocide of millions of Jews) and our response to the fallout (Israel).
What is conveniently 65 years old for you is still going on for us today. That is my point.
Now, I understand that you are really tired of Jews crying Hitler. But, since there are only 10,000 or so Jews left in your country, I figured maybe you actually hadn't heard it enough.
Heck, there are way more Jews in my hometown, Cherry Hill, NJ, then left in your entire country. Probably more Austrian Jews for that matter. One wonders how you can possibly be that offended.
Again, twin towers not taken down by witches and heretics.Skipjack wrote:Besides, your reasoning sucks. The witch hunts were not just against witches, but mostly against so called heretics. These were very real (though they usually never harmed anybody).
Either way, a witch hunt is a witch hunt and torture is torture, no matter how you justify it.
We have conducted our witch hunts before and I am shamed by them.
This is not a witch hunt. Real people plotting real damage to my country. Real enemies. Real!
Now, as in all matters of capture and detainment, innocents are unfortunately included. It is par for the course. Not a good thing. A bad thing. One that should be avoided. But, we aren't burning them at the stake and we are releasing plenty - more than 70% of those that have ever been detained at Gitmo.
On a side note, the fact that folks are celebrating in the streets bothers me. I think it cheapens our moral character. This guy was bad and evil for sure, and justice is served. But to party about it puts us on the same level as folks that party when bad things happen to us.
I for one am content with justice, but I am not out in the street about it. I actually respect the fact the guy died doing what he believed in. As corrupt as is ideology was, it was his and he stuck by it. I for one would have had no qualms to shoot him. But I would not be partying about it afterward. As neccessary as it was, it is still taking a life.
I for one am content with justice, but I am not out in the street about it. I actually respect the fact the guy died doing what he believed in. As corrupt as is ideology was, it was his and he stuck by it. I for one would have had no qualms to shoot him. But I would not be partying about it afterward. As neccessary as it was, it is still taking a life.
But to party about it puts us on the same level as folks that party when bad things happen to us.
That depends on who you count as us and them. If you make the mistake of making this a war against Islam then you have a point. The thing is, most of Osama's victims and the lives that will hopefully now be spared are Pakistani muslims.
I agree that cheering a death is bad. I do however support cheering the victory it represents. I don't think it's fair to class all those celebrating as the former.
I actually respect the fact the guy died doing what he believed in.
I don't. He had strong convictions to something deeply evil, I think that is worse than being weakly committed to doing evil. The guy believed in killing everyone that wouldn't share his very specific beliefs.
That depends on who you count as us and them. If you make the mistake of making this a war against Islam then you have a point. The thing is, most of Osama's victims and the lives that will hopefully now be spared are Pakistani muslims.
I agree that cheering a death is bad. I do however support cheering the victory it represents. I don't think it's fair to class all those celebrating as the former.
I actually respect the fact the guy died doing what he believed in.
I don't. He had strong convictions to something deeply evil, I think that is worse than being weakly committed to doing evil. The guy believed in killing everyone that wouldn't share his very specific beliefs.
I agree. It bothered me too. Just move on with our business. But, in retrospect, for some the emotion was probably too much to contain.ladajo wrote:On a side note, the fact that folks are celebrating in the streets bothers me. I think it cheapens our moral character. This guy was bad and evil for sure, and justice is served. But to party about it puts us on the same level as folks that party when bad things happen to us.
In particular, I was most bothered watching the Phillies game at the time, and hearing the USA, USA, USA chants. That bothered me. Killing Bin Laden was not a victory for us. We lost. It was just simple justice, not worthy of a victorious chant.
Personally, I spent some time in quiet reflection about the person that I lost and about those that lost so much more. It was the somber closing of a very sad book.
Well, I wouldn't go that far.ladajo wrote:I actually respect the fact the guy died doing what he believed in.
I actually respect the fact the guy died doing what he believed in.
Wait, I am more disgusted by this comment when I give it more thought. He died using his own wife as a human shield. That's a disgusting and low way for even the likes of Ghandi to die. I suppose to be any more consistent to this own ideology at the end he'd have to of had one of his own pre-teen kids strapped with explosives guarding the entrance to the compound.
Wait, I am more disgusted by this comment when I give it more thought. He died using his own wife as a human shield. That's a disgusting and low way for even the likes of Ghandi to die. I suppose to be any more consistent to this own ideology at the end he'd have to of had one of his own pre-teen kids strapped with explosives guarding the entrance to the compound.
Well, that fact is not exactly true now is it. But, it remains irrelevant. I said I respect the FACT that the guy died doing what he believed in. I did not and do not respect what he believed in. His conviction to purpose was incredible. This man was not a raving lunatic that trucked down hallways wearing a tinfoil hat and giggling to himself. He was a focused rational and intelligent man. He had moral issues and foundational sociopathic tendencies, but the fact is, he remained true to his purpose, and died doing it. Wrong as his purpose was, he stayed the course.bcglorf wrote:I actually respect the fact the guy died doing what he believed in.
Wait, I am more disgusted by this comment when I give it more thought. He died using his own wife as a human shield. That's a disgusting and low way for even the likes of Ghandi to die. I suppose to be any more consistent to this own ideology at the end he'd have to of had one of his own pre-teen kids strapped with explosives guarding the entrance to the compound.
That level of drive and sense of purpose deserves some measure of respect.
Sun Tzu said to know your enemy.
Last edited by ladajo on Thu May 05, 2011 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry but when things come down to a certain point, then I just dont feel the need anymore to continue with a well mannered discussion of any kind.Then call him on that. Don't sink past his level, please?
Seedload is talking BS, you know it, he probably knows it too. He just enjoys picking on me. I have noticed that before. I have no real idea why that is. I guess I must have unknowingly had sex with his girlfriend and she is having my babies now, or something equally evil as that.
So yeah Seedload, reaaaaally sorry for that!
There's a infamous speech near the end of the movie "Team America World Police" that actually hits the nail on the head in describing people like Bin Laden. He would be in the last category of the three anatomical types described. I wonder if the Muslim religion has the same concept of self righteousness as Christianity and Judaism, it might explain a lot.
CHoff