The Santa Claus effect.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:17 pm

GiT is right about the Zoroastrian religion.
Also, lets not forget the ancient egyptian religion, where the heart of the deceased was weighed to decide whether they were good or bad during their lives. The result would mean either entrance into the perfect afterlife or their heart would be eaten by Devourer of the Dead.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:02 pm

Skipjack wrote:
It's been helping civilize the world for the last 2,000 years.
I guess that depends on how you define "civlize". If you cast a wide enough net to include the past 2000 years, then you should probably go back further. I mean religion was an integral part in many of the ancient civilizations, going back much longer than 2000 years. Whether religion really helped is debatable. At least back then it fullfilled a function as filling holes in the scientific knowledge. Nowadays it is more than often competing with science. I have a problem with that.

Chinese civilization is something like 5,000 years old. (No, i'm not going to look it up.) The Romans lasted for something like a thousand years, and the Egyptians, etc. also had very lengthy periods of existence. What was obviously missing from all these other civilizations that practiced non-Christian religion was advancement. Things didn't change much during their entire period of existence.

My argument for quite some time has been that Christianity influenced society in such a manner that it was able to progress and not remain stagnant like other societies prior to it. Scientific advancement is the result of a stable society, and the stable society was mostly created by Christian teachings and influence.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.

The Church Changed the Perception of Rape

Destroying another man’s clothes, injuring his cattle and raping his wife. These three acts, which viewed through modern eyes seem highly different, were all considered vandalism against a man’s property in the early Middle Ages.

Thanks to the Catholic Church, however, this weird view changed during the Middle Ages.

http://www.realclearscience.com/article ... 06306.html

Read it, and be better informed on my argument.

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:07 pm

GIThruster wrote:The salient issue is not religion so much as a specific belief in an afterlife that includes suffering for the wicked. That goes back 2,000 years. The Jewish notion of Sheol was not so refined as to explain what the afterlife was like. The much earlier Zoroastrian religion did have very specific teaching that there was an afterlife and that it included various levels of suffering for those who did evil, but Zoroastrianism has been pretty close to extinct since thre advent of Islam. Eastern religions that promote belief in Karma, also are proposing a system of ultimate justice, but that system does not include specific suffering in an afterlife. Rather, it's usually tied to reincarnation and relatively little suffering in this life.

The point is pretty obvious: when you believe there is an ultimate reckoning, you act differently than if you don't.

This set of beliefs obliges individuals to act as their own watchmen for their behavior. It is as beneficial as it is diabolical!

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:27 pm

If you're referring to karma as a destructive belief I can agree. Belief in an afterlife as well as belief in karma are both beliefs in an ultimate, but delayed justice, but karma pushes justice off on the next incarnation that has no memory of his prior acts. Just seems a hopelessly confused form of justice to me.

Apart from the cheesy made-up tele-evangelist nonsense the US is stuck with for our very liberal view of freedom of religion, all Judeo-Christian cultures and sects have historically taught that there is no justice in this life. "It rains the same for the righteous and the wicked." Even though ancient judaism didn't refine its view of justice with details of the afterlife, they still had a view that their God will measure out some sort of justice. "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord" and "it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God". Jesus amplified this fairly incomplete understanding. "Do not fear he who can destroy the body, but He who can destroy both body and soul."

Contrast that against the spineless existentialism that teaches we're all "self-authenticating", that life is meaningless and that there will be no ultimate arbiter of justice, indeed no justice at all, and it becomes very easy to see why belief in Hell reduces crime just as a failure to believe in an ultimate justice, encourages it.

Teahive · Post by **Teahive** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:21 am

I think this is psychologically interesting, but I'm not sure what practical conclusions can be drawn from it.

Children usually find out the truth about Santa sooner or later, or they get told when considered mature enough.

GIThruster · Post by **GIThruster** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:24 am

Seems simple enough to me to note that atheists and any others who believe that there is no ultimate justice, should be expected to participate in self-serving and otherwise criminal activity.

Do you really need a logic lesson to show that people who don't believe in the inevitability of justice, act unjust?

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:18 am

Could some one explain the Buddhists? They seem to do alright without heaven or hell.

And Islam while we are at it.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:21 am

Do you really need a logic lesson to show that people who don't believe in the inevitability of justice, act unjust?

Karma in this life cured me. I didn't need to wait for hell. I could see I was creating my own.

Of course I have the left over "bad boy" affect. The girls just love that shite. My Mate was amused the other day at some ladies giving me the eye. It still happens when ever I'm in a place with more than 10 or 20 ladies. One or two will always start looking. One of the ladies the other day was married with husband and child (of about 2). Fortunately for the Mate I'm a one woman man these days.

And I must say that I do understand the Dark Side from experience. An understanding difficult to get any other way. And I'm going to pound my drum again - if you want fewer people on the Dark Side something needs to be done about child abuse. Education would be best. Because fear of Hell sure hasn't done the job. And no government I would care to live under can control a persons actions 24/7/365.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:14 am

How does it work for the abused?

"I can do what ever I want because I have already been punished for it."

Or: "The world owes me a living"

And finally we have a political party to cater to them:

http://classicalvalues.com/2012/02/the-ptsd-party/

It is also the lure of socialism: "government will be the good daddy/mommy I never had".

Let me add that if we let these people self medicate with their drug of choice most of them would cease to be a political problem and the rest would be a minor force in politics.

Fortunately we have enough stupidity going on all sides of the subject to keep the misery for all continuing on quite a bit longer. Yeah a LOT of dopers/alcoholics are dysfunctional. But it isn't the drugs/alcohol. It is the PTSD.

The people behind drug/alcohol prohibition were truly diabolical. Progressives. Backed up by a bunch of well meaning but totally ignorant social conservatives. "Hell" basically restrains the people who need no restraint. Likewise the substance prohibitions.

Well. The knowledge is out there. And the generations after mine are getting it. The sooner the better.

Skipjack · Post by **Skipjack** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:23 am

What was obviously missing from all these other civilizations that practiced non-Christian religion was advancement. Things didn't change much during their entire period of existence.

Uhm, what? Of course there was advancement! You should brush up your history a bit!

hanelyp · Post by **hanelyp** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:38 pm

MSimon wrote:Could some one explain ... Islam while we are at it.

It's not just the belief in divine consequences, but how they relate to actions in this life. When you're taught that barbaric actions will win you entry to paradise, the result should not be surprising.

At the bottom line, most people act in pursuit of self interest. With varying levels of insight and future perspective.

quixote · Post by **quixote** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:38 am

choff wrote:Does this mean belief in heaven is associated with increased crime?

Supposedly, it does.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:59 am

SEATTLE (CBS Seattle) — Believing if you are on a “highway to hell” could impact whether or not if you commit a crime.

Amusing writing style for a place supposedly full of proof readers. Or would that be fact checkers.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:18 am

This is of course way more profitable than studying belief in angels or devils:

From: http://www.nami.org/Content/Microsites1 ... havior.pdf

PTSD can be linked to criminal behavior in two primary ways. First, symptoms of PTSD can incidentally lead to criminal behavior. Second, offenses can be directly connected to the specific trauma that an individual experienced.

Many symptoms of PTSD can lead to a lifestyle that is likely to result in criminal behavior and/or sudden outbursts of violence. Individuals with PTSD are often plagued by memories of the trauma and are chronically anxious. Often, attempts are made to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol. The emotional numbness many trauma survivors experience can lead the survivor to engage in sensation-seeking behavior in an attempt to experience some type of emotion. Some combat veterans also may seek to recreate the adrenaline rush experienced during combat. Feeling the need to be always "on guard" can cause veterans to misinterpret benign situations as threatening and cause them to respond with self-protective behavior. Increased baseline physiological arousal results in violent behavior that is out of proportion to the perceived threat. It is common for trauma survivors to feel guilt, which can sometimes lead them to commit crimes that will likely result in their apprehension, punishment, serious injury, or death.

====

They leave out - "The world owes me a living because I was abused as a child."

==

The First Mate and I were discussing my time with the outlaws - something she only knew from my retelling and meeting some of my former associates.

I said all the outlaws I knew had PTSD from child abuse. She then pointed out that stats she was familiar with said 85% of female chronic opiate users had been sexually abused in childhood.

====

Angels and Devils are a diversion a "head of a pin" (or would that be a pin head?) argument. More useful than the faith of a criminal is their experience.

Bernstein was close "I'm depraved on account of I was deprived." Should be: "I'm depraved on account of I was abused."

Teahive · Post by **Teahive** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:05 pm

GIThruster wrote:Seems simple enough to me to note that atheists and any others who believe that there is no ultimate justice, should be expected to participate in self-serving and otherwise criminal activity.

Do you really need a logic lesson to show that people who don't believe in the inevitability of justice, act unjust?

While such a tendency might exist, it's far from a general rule. There are many people who act just without believing in ultimate justice.

Anyway, belief is not based on logic. What practical recommendations do you draw from the study?