And maybe said Egypt, and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Syria and... I am not sure they are sure they can without total self destruction (Pakistan nukes?). Their history suggests they will try it when they feel they can do it and win. Maybe I am wrong and they have learned something in the past 2000 years. Wouldn't bet on it, but maybe. I can hope, but as I said, I wouldn't bet on it.MSimon wrote:The only thing stopping the Israelis from leveling Gaza and driving the vast majority of its people into Egypt is forbearance.KitemanSA wrote: The US should not be complicit in the appearant ongoing, millenia long effort by the Isreali semites to wipe out all other semites.
So how much things are "improving" in the muslim w
Molon labe.Somebody sure wants you out.
Or if you prefer we have Americanized it:
And of course they want us out. Self government is not popular among some. That makes us a threat.
I still like the John McCain method of dealing with them:
We're Americans and we'll never surrender, they will.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
The Israelis have beaten decisively every Arab Army they ever faced. In '73 they were in a bad spot - they flanked the Egyptian Army and the road was open to Cairo. The Egyptian government called off the war pronto.KitemanSA wrote:And maybe said Egypt, and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Syria and... I am not sure they are sure they can without total self destruction (Pakistan nukes?). Their history suggests they will try it when they feel they can do it and win. Maybe I am wrong and they have learned something in the past 2000 years. Wouldn't bet on it, but maybe. I can hope, but as I said, I wouldn't bet on it.MSimon wrote:The only thing stopping the Israelis from leveling Gaza and driving the vast majority of its people into Egypt is forbearance.KitemanSA wrote: The US should not be complicit in the appearant ongoing, millenia long effort by the Isreali semites to wipe out all other semites.
What exactly could any Arab state do conventionally. And Pakistan if it got involved would have to deal with India. And the Israelis are rather chummy with India these days.
And what have the Israelis learned in the last 2,000 years? Better to be strong than weak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... Kippur_War
And the Egyptians have closed the border to the Palestinians.In September 1970 King Hussein of Jordan drove the Palestine Liberation Organization out of his country. On 18 September 1970 Syrian tanks invaded Jordan, intending to aid the PLO. At the request of the USA, Israel moved troops to the border and threatened Syria, causing the Syrians to withdraw.
It seems the Palis are unpopular even among their brethren. The Israelis have been nicer to them (a relative term to be sure) than the Jordanians.
If the Palis want an end to their bad treatment they could alway surrender.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/4220.htm
Two years ago, a few proud Bedouin Israeli citizens like myself asked: what is our position and status in the State of Israel in the midst of its current situation? After all, Bedouins are part of Israel's success story. During current times, when Israel is being attacked and accused of being a racist state, an 'aggressor and an oppressor', we decided that the smallest and probably most effective thing we could do is to spread our story as part of Israeli society.
I, Ishmael Khaldi, am Israeli. I served with the IDF, with the Israel police, and with the Israeli Defense Ministry. In the last year, I have lost two Bedouin friends on army duty (God bless their memory) defending the State of Israel. My friends and family feel that we have a common destiny with the Jewish people in Israel: our grandparents created this land with Jewish immigrants who arrived during the 1920s, '30s and '40s to build a democracy.
Because of this connection to the State of Israel, I cannot stand on the sidelines during Israel's time of need. I feel that I must speak up and be heard.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
So are you saying that by making an unprovoked attack on Iraq soil, they have every right to bomb the invading soldiers? Because that's what I'm getting out of the libertarian snake.
As you describe it, the John McCain method is just silly. Probably spouted on the campaign trail? Let me phrase my response:
Ahem
No shit you don't surrender to terrorists, and terrorists don't surrender. At best they die, at worst they fade back into the population.
ooo, new update.
As you describe it, the John McCain method is just silly. Probably spouted on the campaign trail? Let me phrase my response:
Ahem
No shit you don't surrender to terrorists, and terrorists don't surrender. At best they die, at worst they fade back into the population.
ooo, new update.
Ahahahah! Oh, the irony is killing me. Why on earth, what possible reason is there that they should have less pride than you, oh sir 'Never Surrender, they will?'If the Palis want an end to their bad treatment they could alway surrender.
So are you saying that by making an unprovoked attack on Iraq soil, they have every right to bomb the invading soldiers? Because that's what I'm getting out of the libertarian snake.
They can surrender or die. You see once the fighting starts it doesn't matter who was in the right.
But just consider the attack a delayed reaction to WTC1. So you know it took us a while to get the ball rolling. And we did give Saddam the option to retire. He declined a most generous offer.
Most Unfortunate.
Later the Iraqis hung him. From what I gather they had one or two grievances. And a lot of mass graves.
BTW I'm no Libertarian (well except for domestic politics) when it comes to international relations I'm a Jacksonian. I thought I explained that. You musta missed it.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
They can have all the pride they want. In fact as much as they can defend. Evidently our pride and will to fight was superior.
Most Unfotunate
For them.
From what I gather the Japanese in WW2 had superior pride and better fighting skills. It didn't do them any good either.
You know how it is: let the Wookie win. The casualties will be lower.
Most Unfotunate
For them.
From what I gather the Japanese in WW2 had superior pride and better fighting skills. It didn't do them any good either.
You know how it is: let the Wookie win. The casualties will be lower.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Welp, I guess our conversation has hit a bit of a dead end. I disagree that power should decide who's right. I'd kind of hoped that you'd agree with me, but there it is.
Simon, to the best of my knowledge, Iraq had nothing to do with WTC attacks. The official justification was WMDs which never existed.
I don't know what a Jacksonian is, and honestly I don't care. I've seen your politics over the two years I've been on this board. You're libertarian, or close enough to make no difference. And the 'Don't tread on me' motto has long been adopted by libertarians.
You talk a good talk, Simon, but there's some massive cognitive dissonance going on here. You always talk about individual freedom and human rights in a domestic context, but your foreign policy is completely opposite.
Simon, to the best of my knowledge, Iraq had nothing to do with WTC attacks. The official justification was WMDs which never existed.
I don't know what a Jacksonian is, and honestly I don't care. I've seen your politics over the two years I've been on this board. You're libertarian, or close enough to make no difference. And the 'Don't tread on me' motto has long been adopted by libertarians.
You talk a good talk, Simon, but there's some massive cognitive dissonance going on here. You always talk about individual freedom and human rights in a domestic context, but your foreign policy is completely opposite.
The conversation died when you failed/refused to see things thru MSimon's eyes because you hastily concluded his POV had to bestial etc. I was in a lab once, and someone senior to me was going nuts trying to fix something. Kept saying.. It just doesn't make sense!
It was kinda weird because he was at least as wise and definitely more experienced than me. So I just said - No, it has to make sense. Or it wouldn't happen.
He stopped and had his eureka moment.
It was kinda weird because he was at least as wise and definitely more experienced than me. So I just said - No, it has to make sense. Or it wouldn't happen.
He stopped and had his eureka moment.
You are obviously well trained at deflecting the question and striking at strawmen. Heck, I even fell for it once. But the question was the long term propensity of the Isrealis toward genocide of other semitic peoples when they could accomplish it and you difflected it toward the Gaza.MSimon wrote: The Israelis have beaten decisively every Arab Army they ever faced. In '73 they were in a bad spot - they flanked the Egyptian Army and the road was open to Cairo. The Egyptian government called off the war pronto.
Very well, thank you for the example. They have determined what they can accomplish toward their end and do it regularly. And the fact that they have been able (often with outside suasion) to defend themselves against attacking forces is not the same as deciding they can safely get away with full out genocide. So they accomplish it in dribs and drabs.
So, their Gaza reaction supports my contention. They are, and have been since "Joshua fit the battle of Jericho" and then went on to eradicate a number of other peaceful city states, a genocidal nation.
Predicting the future is always a mugs game, a game I like to play but don't like to believe the results of, so let me state again, I may be wrong. But I wouldn't bet on it.
What do you expect? He is a Republican which means he is politically schizo. The recent history of America is that of a schizophrenic couple running a household.JohnSmith wrote: You talk a good talk, Simon, but there's some massive cognitive dissonance going on here. You always talk about individual freedom and human rights in a domestic context, but your foreign policy is completely opposite.
It is an established rule in international law and American domestic politics.I disagree that power should decide who's right. I'd kind of hoped that you'd agree with me, but there it is.
It is why we Americans prize our 2nd Amendment.Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. Fredrick Douglas
You see Americans of yore knew, well before Mao, that political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. We prefer guns in the hands of the people.A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
You know - power to the people.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
I'm no Republican. I'm a libertarian domestically and a Jacksonian wrt international relations.KitemanSA wrote:What do you expect? He is a Republican which means he is politically schizo. The recent history of America is that of a schizophrenic couple running a household. :wink:JohnSmith wrote: You talk a good talk, Simon, but there's some massive cognitive dissonance going on here. You always talk about individual freedom and human rights in a domestic context, but your foreign policy is completely opposite.
What is with you? Don't do nuance?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
I was pointing out that the Israelis could take out Gaza and they don't.You are obviously well trained at deflecting the question and striking at strawmen. Heck, I even fell for it once. But the question was the long term propensity of the Isrealis toward genocide of other semitic peoples when they could accomplish it and you difflected it toward the Gaza.
What is your evidence that the Israelis have committed genocide? It is an assertion not backed by facts. Where are the mass graves? Where are the murder factories?
Is winning wars genocide? Is killing their opponents who use human shields genocide? You do know that using human shield is a war crime don't you?
Bedouins are Islamic Arabs who serve in the Israeli Army. So it can't be religion or ethnicity. There must be something else behind the wars.
Israel is a refuge for gay Palestinian Muslims from the disputed territories. And about 20% of Israel's population are Palestinian Muslims.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Is is not should be. And since the first world gets to make the rules for now, I think we should be aiming high. Think of it as intelligent self interest; maybe if we convince everybody that carpet bombing won't solve our problems, they won't bomb us when they're on top.It is an established rule in international law and American domestic politics.
No Betruger, I understand his point of view. I really do. I just don't think it's right. His view is based around treating US citizens as more valuable than foreign citizens. I disagree. People are people.The conversation died when you failed/refused to see things thru MSimon's eyes because you hastily concluded his POV had to bestial etc.
Yes there is cognitive dissonance.
Some here believe politics is rainbows and unicorns.
I personally believe it is a fierce fight for power and that when differences can't be resolved peacefully they will be resolved violently. I claim that notion is the foundation of American politics. Ensconced in our founding document. Not because it changes anything one way or another, but just as a reminder to the politicians.
But OK. Let me give you another chance.
The four strains of American Foreign Policy:
Special Providence: American Foreign Policy and How It Changed the World
And interview with the author:
http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/120.html
Some here believe politics is rainbows and unicorns.
I personally believe it is a fierce fight for power and that when differences can't be resolved peacefully they will be resolved violently. I claim that notion is the foundation of American politics. Ensconced in our founding document. Not because it changes anything one way or another, but just as a reminder to the politicians.
But OK. Let me give you another chance.
The four strains of American Foreign Policy:
Special Providence: American Foreign Policy and How It Changed the World
And interview with the author:
http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/120.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.