Population Control Solves Alot of Problems

[Helius]

And the Tibetans were treating viruses before we even knew what viruses were (we thought they were talking about evil spirits).

Ok. Two questions:

1) What did they think they were talking about?

2) Why do you suppose their hypothesis, or any archaic hypothesis for that matter, isn't available to future generations?

If Willow bark is better for something than aspirin, use it for that reason. It's available. A pure aspirin wasn't available to distantly past generations.

In medicine, we simply have more options. Archaic medical options are a subset of future options, and a rather substantial one.

[alexjrgreen]

And the Tibetans were treating viruses before we even knew what viruses were (we thought they were talking about evil spirits).

Ok. Two questions:

1) What did they think they were talking about?

They understood that people became sick and that the sickness could spread, and they found ways to treat and prevent the sickness.

2) Why do you suppose their hypothesis, or any archaic hypothesis for that matter, isn't available to future generations?

I don't suppose that, though some ancient knowledge has been lost. It's only been a hundred years or so since we could equal the Egyptians at building.

If Willow bark is better for something than aspirin, use it for that reason. It's available.

Exactly.

A pure aspirin wasn't available to distantly past generations.

In medicine, we simply have more options. Archaic medical options are a subset of future options, and a rather substantial one.

Native societies have a wide variety of archaic knowledge. Sometimes they preserve knowledge that we forgot, or even never had.

[Helius]

They understood that people became sick and that the sickness could spread, and they found ways to treat and prevent the sickness.

How did they diagnose and identify infectious agents? How did they identify different types of cancers? What was their agar-agar recipe? Once they got an agent growing, How did they identify it? How did they know if that was the infectious agent or not?

[Jccarlton]

Interesting counterargument:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/ ... icle/7723/

[TallDave]

And the Tibetans were treating viruses before we even knew what viruses were (we thought they were talking about evil spirits).

No they weren't. They had no microscopes. They had little idea what they were treating.

They understood that people became sick and that the sickness could spread, and they found ways to treat and prevent the sickness.

That wasn't exactly a groundbreaking discovery. People pretty much everywhere figured that out.

I don't suppose that, though some ancient knowledge has been lost. It's only been a hundred years or so since we could equal the Egyptians at building.

Not even close to true. Just because the Romans didn't waste their time on useless funeral pyramids doesn't mean their building techniques weren't superior. The Lincoln Cathedral surpassed the highest pyramid in 1300.

Native societies have a wide variety of archaic knowledge.

Sure, but most of it is wrong.

I think you're really missing the forest for the trees, Alex. Lots of these groups have their various bits of useful esoteric knowledge, but none of them ever bound knowledge from all cultures together the way modern Western Civ has, testing and evaluating and sifting wheat from chaff. They aren't sending pharma researchers to us, we're sending our scientists to them, because we have science and they don't. We have accumulated vastly more knowledge than any of them could ever have dreamed of.

[alexjrgreen]

They understood that people became sick and that the sickness could spread, and they found ways to treat and prevent the sickness.

How did they diagnose and identify infectious agents? How did they identify different types of cancers? What was their agar-agar recipe? Once they got an agent growing, How did they identify it? How did they know if that was the infectious agent or not?

You're making cultural assumptions that have only been valid for a century.

From the Sumerians to the Victorians, medicine relied on careful observation of sick people and the conditions under which they improved. Beyond inspection of phlegm, stools and urine for abnormalities, very little laboratory science was done until quite recently.

[Skipjack]

From the Sumerians to the Victorians, medicine relied on careful observation of sick people and the conditions under which they improved. Beyond inspection of phlegm, stools and urine for abnormalities, very little laboratory science was done until quite recently.

Well medicine was pretty much nonsense until the end of the 18th century. Until then a doctor was called a "bader" here. That means a bather. That was pretty much all they did. Bathe people (as in cleaning wounds), sew wounds shut and apply bandages. Maybe use some herbal mixtures that had some effect one way or the other. Usually they were not helpful beyond the placebo effect.
Modern medecine really only took of with the discovery of the penecillin, which did not happen until the 20th century.
That is when I would talk about modern medicine. Anything else is not worth it.

And the Tibetans were treating viruses before we even knew what viruses were (we thought they were talking about evil spirits).

There are many miracles told about eastern medicine. If carefully investigated they all turn out to be not untrue. And "strangely" enough, most eastern doctos nowadays practice modern western medicine.

I don't suppose that, though some ancient knowledge has been lost. It's only been a hundred years or so since we could equal the Egyptians at building.

Ah yes, the mythical, ancient knowledge. Yes there was a period of decline thanks to catholic church, but that did not last for that long.
By the middle of the renaissance we had surpassed pretty much all the "ancient knowledge" there ever was.
Ever had a look at a gothic cathedral? They are tall and their statics are very complex (and that was long before the renaissance).

Native societies have a wide variety of archaic knowledge. Sometimes they preserve knowledge that we forgot, or even never had.

Like?

[alexjrgreen]

And the Tibetans were treating viruses before we even knew what viruses were (we thought they were talking about evil spirits).

No they weren't. They had no microscopes. They had little idea what they were treating.

You can't see most viruses through an optical microscope...

They understood that people became sick and that the sickness could spread, and they found ways to treat and prevent the sickness.

That wasn't exactly a groundbreaking discovery. People pretty much everywhere figured that out.

The difference is that the Tibetans had effective anti-viral treatments.

I don't suppose that, though some ancient knowledge has been lost. It's only been a hundred years or so since we could equal the Egyptians at building.

Not even close to true. Just because the Romans didn't waste their time on useless funeral pyramids doesn't mean their building techniques weren't superior. The Lincoln Cathedral surpassed the highest pyramid in 1300.

In height only...

Native societies have a wide variety of archaic knowledge.

Sure, but most of it is wrong.

You assume that. Have you bothered to check for yourself?

I think you're really missing the forest for the trees, Alex. Lots of these groups have their various bits of useful esoteric knowledge, but none of them ever bound knowledge from all cultures together the way modern Western Civ has, testing and evaluating and sifting wheat from chaff. They aren't sending pharma researchers to us, we're sending our scientists to them, because we have science and they don't. We have accumulated vastly more knowledge than any of them could ever have dreamed of.

We're certainly accumulating knowledge. Sifting the wheat from the chaff is still a way down the road.

[alexjrgreen]

From the Sumerians to the Victorians, medicine relied on careful observation of sick people and the conditions under which they improved. Beyond inspection of phlegm, stools and urine for abnormalities, very little laboratory science was done until quite recently.

Well medicine was pretty much nonsense until the end of the 18th century. Until then a doctor was called a "bader" here. That means a bather. That was pretty much all they did. Bathe people (as in cleaning wounds), sew wounds shut and apply bandages. Maybe use some herbal mixtures that had some effect one way or the other. Usually they were not helpful beyond the placebo effect.
Modern medecine really only took of with the discovery of the penecillin, which did not happen until the 20th century.
That is when I would talk about modern medicine. Anything else is not worth it.

It's hard to see with your eyes closed...

And the Tibetans were treating viruses before we even knew what viruses were (we thought they were talking about evil spirits).

There are many miracles told about eastern medicine. If carefully investigated they all turn out to be not untrue. And "strangely" enough, most eastern doctos nowadays practice modern western medicine.

In vivo and in vitro antiviral activity of five Tibetan medicinal plant extracts against herpes simplex virus type 2 infection

I don't suppose that, though some ancient knowledge has been lost. It's only been a hundred years or so since we could equal the Egyptians at building.

Ah yes, the mythical, ancient knowledge. Yes there was a period of decline thanks to catholic church, but that did not last for that long.
By the middle of the renaissance we had surpassed pretty much all the "ancient knowledge" there ever was.
Ever had a look at a gothic cathedral? They are tall and their statics are very complex (and that was long before the renaissance).

Several. They're not built to the same accuracy as the Great Pyramid.

Native societies have a wide variety of archaic knowledge. Sometimes they preserve knowledge that we forgot, or even never had.

Like?

Knowledge and use of fungi by a mycophilic society of the Venezuelan Amazon

[Skipjack]

It's hard to see with your eyes closed...

Its also hard to see with the electric light turned off.

In vivo and in vitro antiviral activity of five Tibetan medicinal plant extracts against herpes simplex virus type 2 infection

Great, so they had an agent against herpes simplex, maybe... It is currently investigated and nothing is proven and besides it says nowhere that that plants were ever used by the monks there, only that the plants grow in Tibet (big difference).
Also there have been doubtful studies like these done by chinese authors in the past, e.g. about the effectiveness of accupuncture. It turned out they were all lies to get more people to buy their crap and medical tourists to come to china.

sources of nutrition, powerful media for hunting magic, protective charms against black magic, human medicinal agents, or body adornments

Oh yeah "hunting magic" and "protective charms against black magic". That is exactly what my witchdoctor prescribed!
ROFL

Several. They're not built to the same accuracy as the Great Pyramid.

Uhm yeah, thats why they are still standing, LOL
These vaults require quite a lot of accuracy and math. Also: The Cheops Pyramid is a very simple shape. It is not hard to build a simple shape accurately. It also does not have much of an "inside", just a few rather simple chambers. A church is built to have a signifficant amount of its volume empty. This is much harder to do because you have to understand statics. The pyramid, still a great achievement for the time, is more or less a simple burial hill.

[Helius]

It's pretty clear to you Alex, that the set of prehistoric medical options is pretty much a proper subset of current options, and that prehistoric medical techniques were never documented, preventing any kind of recipe and dosing standards for even their time. It's also pretty clear they kept no clinical result documentation, and could only rely on hearsay and guesswork of what may work, including hocus-pocus dances, chicken feathers, and newt-eyes. Who knows what the unintended side effects of newt-eyes might be.

The reason that Thalidomide is no longer given to Pregnant women is that it has a very dangerous side effect *documented* in medical literature, a correction no possible to prehistoric societies.

To show the contrast, here's an example of a prehistoric view of "health" maintenance corrected by modern science:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_%28disease%29
Can't you see that the response to Kuru infecting the Fore communities might well have been to eat *more* human flesh?

[alexjrgreen]

In vivo and in vitro antiviral activity of five Tibetan medicinal plant extracts against herpes simplex virus type 2 infection

Great, so they had an agent against herpes simplex, maybe... It is currently investigated and nothing is proven and besides it says nowhere that that plants were ever used by the monks there, only that the plants grow in Tibet (big difference).

Viral plaque reduction assays showed that extracts from four out of five plants inhibited HSV-2 infection significantly with 50% effective concentrations (EC50) values ranging from 0.35 ± 0.11 to 1.83 ± 0.21 mg/mL. The other plant, Swertia mussotii Franch. (Gentianaceae), exhibited activity in inhibiting the viral biosynthesis.

Which part of "medicinal" didn't you understand?

Also there have been doubtful studies like these done by chinese authors in the past, e.g. about the effectiveness of accupuncture. It turned out they were all lies to get more people to buy their crap and medical tourists to come to china.

Simple ad hominem.

sources of nutrition, powerful media for hunting magic, protective charms against black magic, human medicinal agents, or body adornments

Oh yeah "hunting magic" and "protective charms against black magic". That is exactly what my witchdoctor prescribed!
ROFL

You were too busy cherry-picking to notice "sources of nutrition" and "human medicinal agents".

Several. They're not built to the same accuracy as the Great Pyramid.

Uhm yeah, thats why they are still standing, LOL
These vaults require quite a lot of accuracy and math. Also: The Cheops Pyramid is a very simple shape. It is not hard to build a simple shape accurately. It also does not have much of an "inside", just a few rather simple chambers. A church is built to have a signifficant amount of its volume empty. This is much harder to do because you have to understand statics. The pyramid, still a great achievement for the time, is more or less a simple burial hill.

Find your nearest architect and try that on them...

[alexjrgreen]

It's pretty clear to you Alex, that the set of prehistoric medical options is pretty much a proper subset of current options, and that prehistoric medical techniques were never documented, preventing any kind of recipe and dosing standards for even their time. It's also pretty clear they kept no clinical result documentation, and could only rely on hearsay and guesswork of what may work, including hocus-pocus dances, chicken feathers, and newt-eyes. Who knows what the unintended side effects of newt-eyes might be.

If you assume that no one else knows more than you do, you're not practising science any more.

Oral transmission of knowledge is much more effective than you realise, and there is genuinely new knowledge to be gained. Look up Tetrodotoxin.

[Helius]

If you assume that no one else knows more than you do, you're not practising science any more.

No. I'm correct in knowing I'm much more likely to have their data set than they are mine. It's due to the arrow of time.

It may have been correct that at the dawning of the renaissance that ancient knowledge was greater than the then current knowledge. We know Galileo's contemporaries thought so. It's bizarre, however, to carry the assumption that prehistoric word of mouth and songs could possibly carry a body of knowledge at all measurable compared to what is carried in historical times, much less so than today. Really bizarre, but a romantic notion nonetheless.

[Skipjack]

Simple ad hominem.

I give you that one. I am still sceptical though. Please forgive me.

You were too busy cherry-picking to notice "sources of nutrition" and "human medicinal agents".

Oh I did notice that. I just cant see anything in there that tells me in a believable fashion that these things actually cure something.
I do like mushrooms for food. We go picking them here every summer.
It is also true that some fungi, under some circumstances can produce antibiotics. I do however doubt that these people understand and know that. Even if they by accident figured out that some fungi can produce antibiotics (and we dont even know that the ones they are using do), they have no way of knowing what illness to use them against.
It is ridiculous to assume they do.
How would they know what a gram positive, or a gram negative bacteria is? They dont even know what bacteria are. They do seem to know about black magic though.
Now even if for some reason, they knew all that and made it work, then their fungi would only cure some illnesses. They would still be powerless against most of the others.
That aside I just fail to take anything seriously ( and you can pick me apart for that, I dont care) that is mentioned in one sentence with black- and hunting- magic. It clearly shows that there is absolutely no understanding there whatsoever.

Find your nearest architect and try that on them...

Try what on them? Anyone with some brains will tell you that building a cathedral is much harder than piling up a bunch of rocks in the most self stabalizing shape possible.
There is nothing mythical about the pyramids. They were an awesome achievement for their time, but they were overtaken even in the antics. The Pantheon in Rome e.g. is smaller, but much more impressive as an achievement.
Still it does not matter, you are assuming that HG- cultures know things that noone else knew after the middle ages. Something that "got lost". I dont know how you get to this assumption. It does not make sense.
There was not some single event that deleted knowledge. People were always sick and people always tried to cure the sicknesses. It took understanding, knowledge and modern tools to finaly cure as many as we can cure today.