Population Control Solves Alot of Problems

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TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

You can't see most viruses through an optical microscope...
Are you claiming they had electron microscopes, or conceding their ignorance? They had nothing remotely resembling microbiology.
The difference is that the Tibetans had effective anti-viral treatments.
Ok, yay for them. What about every other tribe that didn't? Again, you're missing the big picture. Every single tribal society is vastly inferior to us in virtually every way. If one of them happens to stumble onto something useful, that doesn't immediately elevate them to the status of our peers.
You assume that. Have you bothered to check for yourself?
Seriously? Do I really need to go down the laundry list of bizarre tribal beliefs? We can start with African tribes that believed eating the brains of the dead would ward of sickness, and instead nearly went extinct from prion diseases.

Every hunter-gatherer society is incredibly ignorant by our standards.
The Lincoln Cathedral surpassed the highest pyramid in 1300.

In height only...
No, in design as well. The Egyptians were incapable of building such a structure.

Come on. Take ten seconds and Google the respective accomplishments of Roman and Egyptian engineering, let alone medieval engineering.
We're certainly accumulating knowledge. Sifting the wheat from the chaff is still a way down the road.
Now I'm not sure you understand the basic concept of "science."

rcain
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Post by rcain »

...Every single tribal society is vastly inferior to us in virtually every way...
- right on mein fuhrer!

but wait, are you claiming that science itself isn't tribal? that cant be right!

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

rcain wrote:
...Every single tribal society is vastly inferior to us in virtually every way...
- right on mein fuhrer!

but wait, are you claiming that science itself isn't tribal? that cant be right!
I'm not sure what you're on about re Hitler. We were discussing the relative proficiency in medical science of hunter-gatherers vs modern civilization.

pfrit
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Post by pfrit »

You can't see most viruses through an optical microscope...
Actually there is a group of viruses that can be seen with an optical microscope. Mimiviruses and Mamaviruses.
What is the difference between ignorance and apathy? I don't know and I don't care.

Brian H
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Post by Brian H »

TallDave wrote:
rcain wrote:
...Every single tribal society is vastly inferior to us in virtually every way...
- right on mein fuhrer!

but wait, are you claiming that science itself isn't tribal? that cant be right!
I'm not sure what you're on about re Hitler. We were discussing the relative proficiency in medical science of hunter-gatherers vs modern civilization.
He's talking "Deconstructionist Code". That attitude towards science is that it's just one more narrow cultural phenomenon, consisting of limited class and social constructs, which only Progressive Deconstructionists are able to objectively analyze and apprehend. Reason and proof and logic are mere illusions concocted by dead white guys.
Help Keep the Planet Green! Maximize your CO2 and CH4 Output!
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rcain
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Post by rcain »

TallDave wrote:
rcain wrote:
...Every single tribal society is vastly inferior to us in virtually every way...
- right on mein fuhrer!
I'm not sure what you're on about re Hitler. We were discussing the relative proficiency in medical science of hunter-gatherers vs modern civilization.
Sorry TallDave - I was taking what you said out of context. It made me laugh.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

Helius wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote: If you assume that no one else knows more than you do, you're not practising science any more.
No. I'm correct in knowing I'm much more likely to have their data set than they are mine. It's due to the arrow of time.

It may have been correct that at the dawning of the renaissance that ancient knowledge was greater than the then current knowledge. We know Galileo's contemporaries thought so. It's bizarre, however, to carry the assumption that prehistoric word of mouth and songs could possibly carry a body of knowledge at all measurable compared to what is carried in historical times, much less so than today. Really bizarre, but a romantic notion nonetheless.
The arrow of time results in people forgetting things as well. We know of many ancient books that have been lost.

What people know is the result of all kinds of historical and geographical coincidences. Even if their recorded body of knowledge is smaller than yours, there may be no reason for you to know what they know.

Science doesn't assume. There are PhDs and peer reviewed papers to be gained.
Ars artis est celare artem.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

Skipjack wrote:
You were too busy cherry-picking to notice "sources of nutrition" and "human medicinal agents".
Oh I did notice that. I just cant see anything in there that tells me in a believable fashion that these things actually cure something.
I do like mushrooms for food. We go picking them here every summer.
It is also true that some fungi, under some circumstances can produce antibiotics. I do however doubt that these people understand and know that. Even if they by accident figured out that some fungi can produce antibiotics (and we dont even know that the ones they are using do), they have no way of knowing what illness to use them against.
It is ridiculous to assume they do.
And yet they do, so your assumption must be wrong.
Skipjack wrote:How would they know what a gram positive, or a gram negative bacteria is? They dont even know what bacteria are. They do seem to know about black magic though.
Now even if for some reason, they knew all that and made it work, then their fungi would only cure some illnesses. They would still be powerless against most of the others.
Their medicine is based on an oral tradition of meticulous observation over many lifetimes. It's a slow process, but it can be effective.
Skipjack wrote:That aside I just fail to take anything seriously ( and you can pick me apart for that, I dont care) that is mentioned in one sentence with black- and hunting- magic. It clearly shows that there is absolutely no understanding there whatsoever.
Before take-off, pilots go through a checklist to make sure their plane is airworthy. If you didn't understand what it was, you might dismiss it as a magical incantation.

Any dataset can be described by multiple models. We prefer ones that tie in with the rest of our scientific endeavour, but any model with predictive power can be useful (ask an engineer). You're allowing the unfamiliarity of the presentation to blind you to the knowledge behind it.
Ars artis est celare artem.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

TallDave wrote:Every single tribal society is vastly inferior to us in virtually every way. If one of them happens to stumble onto something useful, that doesn't immediately elevate them to the status of our peers.
TallDave wrote:Every hunter-gatherer society is incredibly ignorant by our standards.
"A fool cannot even learn from a wise man, but a wise man can learn even from a fool."
TallDave wrote:
We're certainly accumulating knowledge. Sifting the wheat from the chaff is still a way down the road.
Now I'm not sure you understand the basic concept of "science."
I understand it well enough to have a sense of its limitations. Do you?
Ars artis est celare artem.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

We know of many ancient books that have been lost.
Yeah and that is a pitty from a historical POV. It could tell an archeologist or historian a lot. I doubt however that there would be any medical discovery in it, that would be proof to be superior, even equal to our current medical methods.
And yet they do, so your assumption must be wrong.
Why? Some tribes (not them, I know) practice female circumcision and think that it has some medical advantage too. Yet, there is none. It is simply a barbaric ritual with no medical meaning at all.

Also I want to point out other medical errors such tribes may have. Canibalism was already mentioned. Primeval tribes would sometimes drill holes into someones head to let out the evil spirits (it is believed that the poor guy simply had headaches).
They applied tattoos to their bodies believing they would help.
It is all wrong, total bull and in no way helpful. If anything this stuff is dangerous.
- right on mein fuhrer!
Let that guy rest in his grave please. It is not funny and all it does is really bore and annoy me.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

Skipjack wrote:
We know of many ancient books that have been lost.
Yeah and that is a pitty from a historical POV. It could tell an archeologist or historian a lot. I doubt however that there would be any medical discovery in it, that would be proof to be superior, even equal to our current medical methods.
Look up Evidence Based Medicine.

A 2007 analysis of 1016 systematic reviews of western medical interventions, carried out by the Cochrane Collaboration, found that 44% of the reviews concluded that the intervention was "likely to be beneficial", 7% concluded that the intervention was "likely to be harmful", and 49% concluded that evidence "did not support either benefit or harm". 96% recommended further research.
Skipjack wrote:
And yet they do, so your assumption must be wrong.
Why? Some tribes (not them, I know) practice female circumcision and think that it has some medical advantage too. Yet, there is none. It is simply a barbaric ritual with no medical meaning at all.

Also I want to point out other medical errors such tribes may have. Canibalism was already mentioned. Primeval tribes would sometimes drill holes into someones head to let out the evil spirits (it is believed that the poor guy simply had headaches).
They applied tattoos to their bodies believing they would help.
It is all wrong, total bull and in no way helpful. If anything this stuff is dangerous.
Some of the things you believe are probably wrong. Should I conclude from that that everything you say is total bull?

Trepanation (drilling a hole in the skull) is still used as a life saving treatment for relieving cranial pressure.
Ars artis est celare artem.

MirariNefas
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Post by MirariNefas »

Trepanation (drilling a hole in the skull) is still used as a life saving treatment for relieving cranial pressure.
I wonder if we reviewed this practice in a traditional medicine context, what percentage we would conclude to be "likely to be beneficial", what percentage would be "likely to be harmful", what percentage would have evidence that "did not support either benefit or harm", and what percent would recommend further research.

Oh, wait, that sort of analysis comes from experts with advanced medical knowledge and statistical methods, not from tribal medicine men. So left alone, the tribes would never know and never advance.

Modern medicine is better because it can advance. To deny that it is good is to say that it can't get better, that nothing can get better, and that we might as well stop trying and cut all funding to medical research.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

"A fool cannot even learn from a wise man, but a wise man can learn even from a fool."
Yes, exactly. That's why we have petabytes of medical research, and they have a medicine man dancing around.
I understand it well enough to have a sense of its limitations. Do you?
No, I'm saying you don't seem to understand the basic concept of science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

The whole point of science is to test hypotheses, separate the wheat from the chaff.

The human mind is not really well-adapted to science; we are superstitious because the longest-lasting correlations in our brains are the random ones. That's why it took millennia for the concept to be properly developed. That's why your hunter-gatherers are out there chanting and doing dances and painting their faces in the expectation it will have some sort of medical effect.

Hunter-gatherer tribes may come up with something useful now and then, but they are vastly inferior overall.
If you didn't understand what it was, you might dismiss it as a magical incantation.
Assuming you were not an idiot, you could ask "Hey, what's oil pressure?" and it could be explained to you. When you ask about magical incantations, they turn out to be... magical incantations.

We still have the Lord's Prayer, but no one mistakes it for a pre-flight check.

IntLibber
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Post by IntLibber »

Skipjack wrote:
We know of many ancient books that have been lost.
Yeah and that is a pitty from a historical POV. It could tell an archeologist or historian a lot. I doubt however that there would be any medical discovery in it, that would be proof to be superior, even equal to our current medical methods.
The problem with that uninformed attitude is that a large portion of the newest medicines are compounds derived from various herbal and natural remedies. As an example, scientists have recently found the major component of green tea is a compound which binds with a key protein that is responsible for the immortality of cancer cells.

When my father had surgery to remove a large and small cell esophagal cancerous tumor a few years ago, he went into a regimen of drinking a pint of green tea three times a day at his doctors recommendation. His doctors credit this regimen for what they regard as a full recovery.

There are currently drugs in trials that use the compounds in green tea to target cancers more effectively and with fewer side effects than chemotherapy.
And yet they do, so your assumption must be wrong.
Why? Some tribes (not them, I know) practice female circumcision and think that it has some medical advantage too. Yet, there is none. It is simply a barbaric ritual with no medical meaning at all.
And our civilized western tribe still sees plenty of male circumcision without any peer reviewed research justifying it, so what? We also engage in a lot of plastic surgery which has no medical justification, surgery which is extremely painful (liposuction, breast augmentation, etc), at least as painful as female circumcision. Women here undergo this pain due to cultural pressure, sometimes even pressure from spouses. It is incredibly bigoted for you to judge our plastic surgery acceptable while saying female circumcision you claim is barbaric.

Also I want to point out other medical errors such tribes may have. Canibalism was already mentioned. Primeval tribes would sometimes drill holes into someones head to let out the evil spirits (it is believed that the poor guy simply had headaches).
They applied tattoos to their bodies believing they would help.
It is all wrong, total bull and in no way helpful. If anything this stuff is dangerous.
Medical doctors drill holes in peoples heads to relieve fluid pressure. Tatooing triggers dopamine responses which does also provide pain relief.

I myself discovered a cure for headaches that involves torturing myself by violently pinching the piece of skin between my nostrils hard for 30 seconds. This triggers a dopamine response that cures the headache within 5 minutes without any medication. An ignorant medical doctor of the 1950's would claim I am mentally deranged and prone to inflicting pain on myself in response to hallucination.

There are a lot of things discovered by trial and error in traditional medicine along with a lot of superstitious hooey. I suspect a lot of traditional treatments that don't work today may have worked at some time in the past but became ineffective as disease organisms evolved defenses against them.
Last edited by IntLibber on Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

MirariNefas wrote:
Trepanation (drilling a hole in the skull) is still used as a life saving treatment for relieving cranial pressure.
I wonder if we reviewed this practice in a traditional medicine context, what percentage we would conclude to be "likely to be beneficial"
The evidence of prehistoric trepanned skulls is that the wound healed. So apparently the patient survived.
Ars artis est celare artem.

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