Liberal view of Government.

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Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Msimon wrote:Bad thinking.

Well, not to different from the socialists here. Is it. Same problem, differnt color.
I must say though that the ID folks have done much less harm than the Socialists.
That I am not entirely too sure about, but you might have a point here.
Still (and TallDave completely and entirely managed to miss my point here) both are religions.
Also I was never doubting the point of religious freedom. And Hitler went after the jews, not so much for religious reasons, but for power reasons and of course because his ideology demanded it (there cant be anyone better than the Germans, the jews are better than the Germans, so they had to go).
TallDave wrote:You guys had ovens for Jews. I don't think you're in position to criticize us on that one.
I had nothing for noone! My wife is half jewish. I am in the position to critizise whoever I like, on whatever I like.
Did I make myself clear?!
TallDave wrote:Capitalism is the best teacher.
Well, your country has one huge advantage over, e.g. mine:
You have almost every natural resource and you have lots and lots of land.
We have none of that (more before WW1, but not even then it was close to yours).
Considering how disadvantaged we have been in this regard for such a long time, we are holding out pretty well for ourselves, honestly.
Btw, I am not quite sure how you are measuring "the most productive workforce in the world". In terms of PPP, GDI, GDPPC, you are never on top.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

MSimon wrote:
alexjrgreen wrote:Arabic science didn't end with Al Ghazali, as the examples I gave easily demonstrate.
Here is a post I did on the subject:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... berty.html
If I cherry-picked Jewish writings the way you cherry-pick Islamic ones, you would undoubtedly call me anti-semitic.

There was and is a wide variety of opinion in Islam. After the fall of Byzantium and the expulsion of Muslims from Spain, the drive for consolidation discouraged independent thinking, in much the same way as it had done previously in Catholic Europe. From a scientific viewpoint, both are highly regrettable.

Your knowledge of Arabic is apparently incomplete: Liberty in Arabic / English translation.
Ars artis est celare artem.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

I had nothing for noone! My wife is half jewish. I am in the position to critizise whoever I like, on whatever I like.
Did I make myself clear?!
I was comparing Europe and America.
And Hitler went after the jews, not so much for religious reasons, but for power reasons and of course because his ideology demanded it
That's why freedom of religion is so important as a poitical principle.
You have almost every natural resource and you have lots and lots of land.
Largely irrelevant. Look at Japan or Russia. But my aim isn't to dump on Austria, just to point to the power of free markets.
Btw, I am not quite sure how you are measuring "the most productive workforce in the world". In terms of PPP, GDI, GDPPC, you are never on top.
PPP GDP per capita. No large country comes close. In fact, even if you add up all the little countries with the highest PPP GDP per capita, you can't find 300 million people to match us.
Last edited by TallDave on Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

There was and is a wide variety of opinion in Islam. After the fall of Byzantium and the expulsion of Muslims from Spain, the drive for consolidation discouraged independent thinking, in much the same way as it had done previously in Catholic Europe. From a scientific viewpoint, both are highly regrettable.
The fall of Baghdad really crippled the Islamic liberals, who were already coming under fire. The battle between dogmatic faith and freethinking reason within Islam was pretty one-sided from then on. Even today, the Wahhabis are far too influential.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Hitler may have killed the Jews for economic reasons.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... urity.html

Re: Islam - yes there were many contending schools of thought. Which prevailed?

I can't find it right now but there was a series of articles in a Military Journal that explained why Islamic Armies in general do so poorly. Written by a trainer. The doctrine of "Insallah" prevailed. And due to that the soldiers are light on preventive maintenance.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Your knowledge of Arabic is apparently incomplete: Liberty in Arabic / English translation.
I have a number of Muslims that read my blog. I got a recommendation from the Muslim Brotherhood once (they liked the title of a post - some one neglected to read it).

Ali Eteraz who writes from time to time for the New York times and other venues is an internet friend.

I have posting privileges at "Muslims Against Sharia".

In the period when that was written I got a LOT of Muslim scrutiny. No one said I was wrong.

It may be a matter of nuance. The Arabic word may be more akin to license vs the English concept of ordered liberty. We see that a lot even in the English speaking world. Libertarians are often confused with libertines by some.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

You have almost every natural resource and you have lots and lots of land.
Hong Kong is a prime example of the success of market capitalism in a resource poor City State. So successful that Hong Kong thinking now dominates China.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

you would undoubtedly call me anti-semitic.
Nope. It is a common mistake to use this word. The palestinians are also semites. They are predominantly muslim.
So you would probably have to be called an anti judaist.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

IntLibber
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Post by IntLibber »

Skipjack wrote:
Msimon wrote:Where did all the Euro Socialists come from?
Where did all the US Intelligent Design believers come from?
They come from the fact that the socialists have gutted the public schools so that they are turning out illiterate/innumerate idiots who cannot reason scientifically/logically and are having kids who likewise attend the same schools, taught by teachers who are incapable of articulating the case for evolution, while evolutionary scientists refuse to engage in the debate on the argument that they dont argue against religion, when in fact, its the duty of scientsts supporting a theory to argue for it against prior theories. Big bang proponents must argue against steady staters, quantum physicists must argue why newtonianism is incomplete, and the spontaneous biogenesis of ID must be argued against by evolutionists.

IntLibber
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Post by IntLibber »

MSimon wrote:
Skipjack wrote:
Msimon wrote:Where did all the Euro Socialists come from?
Where did all the US Intelligent Design believers come from?
Bad thinking.

I must say though that the ID folks have done much less harm than the Socialists.
Well yes, because ID is an obvious sign of magical thinking but ID tends to be held by those who are not bent on world conquest. Socialism is a much more virulent, intolerant, and self righteous religion.

alexjrgreen
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Post by alexjrgreen »

MSimon wrote:Re: Islam - yes there were many contending schools of thought. Which prevailed?
You would have to ask "when" and "where".

The majority of Muslims now live in Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Egypt and Nigeria (in roughly that order). Was that the "when" and "where" you intended?
MSimon wrote:In the period when that was written I got a LOT of Muslim scrutiny. No one said I was wrong.

It may be a matter of nuance. The Arabic word may be more akin to license vs the English concept of ordered liberty. We see that a lot even in the English speaking world. Libertarians are often confused with libertines by some.
Muslims are so used to ignorance from non-muslims that they rarely correct it.

Also, different languages split concepts in different ways - try looking up the number of translations for "hit" in Portuguese. Finding a single word translation to another language of exactly what you mean when you say "liberty" is going to be a challenge. In most cases you will need to qualify the concept in order to make it sufficiently clear.

But claiming that there isn't an Arabic word for "liberty" in the general sense is just bad rhetoric.
Ars artis est celare artem.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

You would have to ask "when" and "where".
Any where in the world for the last 500 years.

What Islamic country do we look toward for developments in Science and Technology?

Japan has an IEC Fusion program that is vibrant and making significant contributions. Name an Islamic Country that has a fusion program of any kind.

Muslims do quite well in science in the USA. So it is not a lack of talent. The Petro Arabians have cash - so it is not a lack of resources. There is something wrong with the culture.
"To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of Muhammad and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have kept on developing" -- General George S. Patton: The War as I Knew it
Turkey was importing Western technology in the 1700s. That means they had around 250 years to develop a vibrant technological culture. Why didn't they? Japan started at least 100 years later and developed faster. Why?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

TallDave wrote:
However, the way he managed the post invasion period was down right stupid.
The disastrous light footprint strategy was no more or less than the conventional wisdom of the time. Everyone thought the Iraqis could self-govern and that our major responsibility was not to be too overbearing (hence the great effort to, for instance, allow Iraqis to write their own Constitution rather than imposing one as we did in Germany and Japan). As it turned out, the pathology of the Baathists had so eroded basic civility and liberal institutions that ethnosectarian thugs quickly emerged as the new power centers.

Nevertheless, the Petraeus "population first" strategy and the evolving competence of the U.S.-trained Iraqi Army eventually turned things around and now Iraq is the closest thing to a major Arab liberal democracy the region has ever seen, a staggering achievement at relatively small cost by historical standards. Life is better for Iraqis by virtually every measure of liberty and prosperity.

And Iraq has wide implications. People in Iran are noticing that Iraq has real elections. The Syrian border tribes are becoming more defiant towards Damascus (46 years of "emergency powers?" really?). The new Iraqi government doesn't seem interested in fomenting or funding Palestinian violence.

There is no disputing that the overall strategy was salvaged by a large infusion of blood, treasure, and time. I do believe, however, that it could have been done earlier and at far less cost in blood and treasure, and this is saying nothing of the political damage the initial screw up did to THIS country.

Had it not been for the idiocy of Paul Bremer (and I'm Certain, George W. Bush) the Fiasco of the Democrats getting into power would have been avoided. I would argue that the collapse of Iraq is far less significant to the well being of this nation than is the damage wrought by allowing evil idiots into power in our nation.

The Two most obvious and most serious missteps Paul Bremer made in Iraq were the announcement that No member of the Bath Party would be allowed to keep their Government jobs, and that the entire Iraqi Army would be disbanded.

This effectively put thousands (millions?) of men out of work, and made them realize that we were the greatest threat to their future. Not only that, but these were the MOST dangerous men in Iraq. The people who knew where the guns and explosives were kept, and the people who now had a reason to hate us. Apart from everything else, it was rightly seen as unfair. In Saddam's Iraq, you HAD to be a member of the Bath party to work in ANY government job. Many people were Bath party members because you couldn't work otherwise.


Contrast this with the methodology used in the Aftermath of World War II. The word went out, that people (Nazi party members) should continue their Official duties as before. After a Period of investigation, if it was determined that they had committed no war crimes, nothing would be done to them. If on the Other hand, it was determined that they HAD committed war crimes, they would be removed from their position of authority and put on trial.

It is my opinion that the Methodology of World War II was greatly superior to the Ad Hoc schemes cooked up on the fly by Paul Bremer and George w. Bush. No doubt, they assumed they had totally conquered the country, rather than simply defeat it's army. If we had taken in Ten times the number of forces we brought, Bremer might have been able to make his diktats stick, but with a force only sufficient for conquering an army, you are a fool to attempt to subjugate a populace that is 200 times larger. It can be done, but you have to use Mongol tactics. Wipe out entire populations, and you can make them obey. That, however was not a tactic available to US.

If we had gained the Cooperation of the Bathists in the first place, much unnecessary blood shed and suffering could have been avoided. As it turned out, we didn't resolve the crisis in Iraq until we DID make accommodations with the Sunni Bathists.

They may have not been as much a victim of Saddam as the Shites were, but they WERE victims as well. I personally think they were the smarter of the two groups and would have cooperated with the US in turning Iraq into a Democracy. (once they realized we weren't their enemy.)

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Muslims are so used to ignorance from non-muslims that they rarely correct it.
That may be true in general. It was not the truth in my case. Ali Eteraz spent a couple of weeks correcting some of my erroneous impressions.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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