Liberal view of Government.

[TDPerk]

The ID folks are a small and relatively powerless minority.

And yet, MSimon, I remember from a differing thread that you are a big fan of beating them with a stick

[Skipjack]

And yet, MSimon, I remember from a differing thread that you are a big fan of beating them with a stick

Now that would be intolerant. IMHO they can do their stuff in their churches and at home, but not in a school where my children go to. That is the problem I have.

[Diogenes]

All awesome pieces by great master composers. Ahh, they just dont make music like that anymore these days.
1812 is Collenell Deckers favorire piece (anyone who ever watched the A- Team will know what I am talking about)

I like the ride of the Valkyries, but I prefer the ouvertures to Meistersaenger and Tannhaeuser. The ouverture to Rienzi also is quite nice.
Meistersaenger is among my favorite operas by Wagner and in general, since it is for a Wagner opera a nice aberration from his usual, rather depressing tragedies.

Of course one should not forget to mention Bach and Vivaldi and Pachelbel and Albinioni... Bach wrote some of the most breathtaking pieces of music ever.

Some of my favorite pieces of music was written by the brilliant russian Mussorgsky (night on the bare mountain and promenade from pictures of an exhibition).

I like the Sword forging song from Siegfried. I've got the entire Der Ring Des Nibelungen sitting on my shelf. Vivaldi and Pachebel is great, but i'm not familiar with Albinioni or Mussorgsky. Prokofiev, Shostakovich Yes, Mussorgsky ? No. I'll have to look up some of his music when I get the chance.

[Diogenes]

What Islamic country do we look toward for developments in Science and Technology?

Indonesia and Pakistan, the largest Muslim populations in the world, both have space programmes.

Japan has an IEC Fusion program that is vibrant and making significant contributions. Name an Islamic Country that has a fusion program of any kind.

India, with the third largest Muslim population in the world: Institute for Plasma Research.

From what I've seen, Indonesia Muslims appear to be substantially more moderate than their religious cousins in the middle east. They have embraced science and engineering with gusto, and are working to build a more modern society. Hopefully they will bypass the stupid phase that my society is going through now.

[Diogenes]

It's called "freedom of religion." You guys had ovens for Jews. I don't think you're in position to criticize us on that one.

And we Americans massacred the Indians and Kept Slaves. Oh, wait... That was our ancestors! Maybe we modern Americans shouldn't be blamed for the Actions of our ancestors?

The 1800s? What do you think was happening in Europe at the time? It wasn't all peace and love.

In any case, the 1940s aren't some bygone age. Some of those people are still around today.

And the 1960s were even closer than that. Wasn't it just a year or so ago that we put on trial one of the men involved in those Civil rights era killings back in Mississippi ? (1963 I think.) Strange fruit has been hanging on trees from the 1920s up to and probably including the 1960s. (Yes, I could look it up, but I think i'm in the ballpark just from memory.)

The Two most obvious and most serious missteps Paul Bremer made in Iraq were the announcement that No member of the Bath Party would be allowed to keep their Government jobs, and that the entire Iraqi Army would be disbanded.

The former is almost certainly true (deBaathification was overapplied), the latter simply acknowledged reality: the Shia conscripts had all gone home.

I can't see how throwing the Sunni's out of work because the Shia's left accomplishes anything useful. I hate to be rude, but it appears to me that the Sunnis are smarter and have a more serious attitude than the Shia's . That's why they were running Iraq, though they were a minority. Of the two groups, I think the Sunnis were a much worse adversary.

It is my opinion that the Methodology of World War II was greatly superior to the Ad Hoc schemes cooked up on the fly by Paul Bremer and George w. Bush.

OTOH, we didn't have to carpet bomb Baghdad or nuke Tikrit. If we had, the occupation would have been much easier, but the cost would have been horrifying.

"Light footprint" was a disaster, but try to imagine the reaction if we had sent in 500,000 troops and put them on every corner in 2003. It would have been called everything from imperial to racist. Of course, we now know it would have worked a lot better, but the conventional wisdom of the time was we needed to be gentle, hands-off conquerors.

We could have been gentle and hands-off if we hadn't made those two serious mistakes. Fear of the Sunnis would have helped keep the Shia's in line. Moqtada Al Sadr probably wouldn't have been nearly the nuisance if he had serious concerns about the Sunnis hunting him down and killing him and his family.

Our Primary Goal was to make D@amned certain that Iraq could not get and use Nuclear Weapons. Our Secondary Goal (though unstated in the justification for war) was to create a prosperous democracy in the Middle east to topple all of the Tyrannical governments that kept people miserable and directing all of their hate at us. We could have demanded reforms, and inclusion of the Shia's, but we could have worked with the Sunnis who were already in the government and new how to run the country already. The forces we could have saved holding down Sunni areas could have been used in securing the Shia areas.

Now you could make the argument that P|ssing off the Sunnis and having them invite Foreign fighters and terrorists (Al Qaeda) into Iraq was beneficial to us because it allowed us to kill more of these people in Iraq, rather than deal with them elsewhere where it would be harder, but I think we could have done more damage to their cause by Getting Iraq on it's feet faster. A prosperous happy population in Iraq would have served as a shinning light to the Miserable people in other Dictator held Arab lands. As it was, we ended up looking like the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

In any case, if there was any good to come out of the misstep, it was that we managed to kill a lot of foreign terrorists, but in no way could you call that a clever plan, or even planned at all. It was simply acknowledged after the fact, and then they tried to present it as though they had intended that outcome.

edit: Oh, and don't forget. The worst terrorist attack on American soil will be a pittance in lives and treasure to what a Weimar America will look like. By not getting in and out of Iraq Quickly, we rallied all of the Liberal Forces, (including their most powerful tool, the Media people who will incessantly push their agenda.) against Bush, and by association, Republicans in General, and allowed a false meme about Conservatism to fester and grow. (Bush was hardly a conservative, and of Republicans, conservatives are only a plurality. In the last several Congresses, the Moderates reigned.)

The Screw up in Iraq, created the conditions that led to Obama and a Democrat Congress. If they end up putting us all in poverty, or worse, it won't be worth the entire Country of Iraq, or even the entire middle east.

I would rather ride a horse than see my children enslaved or killed.

[Diogenes]

And yet, MSimon, I remember from a differing thread that you are a big fan of beating them with a stick

Now that would be intolerant. IMHO they can do their stuff in their churches and at home, but not in a school where my children go to. That is the problem I have.

It is a tempest in a tea cup. Yet look how the media amplifies it out to the world such that people on other continents regard it as a serious issue.

To play the Devils advocate (he he) I would point out that the Darwinists started it. Learning about evolution is only important to those people who want to be involved in that branch of Science. It serves no real benefit to the vast majority of people who learn about it.

In contrast, (if my theory is correct) Not doing damage to the religious beliefs that are responsible for creating a just and caring society, is very useful indeed.

Some people (who take the Bible absolutely literally) believe that Evolution damages their faith. They have responded with Intelligent Design as a way to counteract the damage to their faith. Within the guidelines of their faith, the theory seems plausible. Within the guidelines of Science, it does not.

In any case, I am personally in favor of them not bothering to teach either theory, because neither one of them amounts to a hill of beans in most people's lives. Those that wish to learn further can pursue whatever knowledge they wish later.

[KitemanSA]

Humanists had the humanity to create a just and caring society. Religions generally gave us atrocities "in God's Name".

[Skipjack]

Mussorgsky ? No.

Well John Williams got inspired by night on the bare mountain when he wrote the soundtrack to jaws
Pictures of an exhibition is also very, very famous. Mussorgsky was one of the romantic "programm musicians". His music would tell a story, or describe a scenery. Very nice.
You should also try Franz Liszt. He too made programm music. His "Preludes" are fantastic.

Learning about evolution is only important to those people who want to be involved in that branch of Science. It serves no real benefit to the vast majority of people who learn about it.

This is where we are differing again. I say that no matter what it is, real knowledge is never wrong. The more you know, the less likely you are to fall for some scam or a "Fuehrer" that will try to use your lack of knowledge to his advantage. Knowledge is power! Science is knowledge!
ID is not knowledgem it is not even religion (most christians dont even take it serious anymore), it is a waste of brain capacity.

Some people (who take the Bible absolutely literally) believe that Evolution damages their faith.

Exactly, because it does. It is the same with all religions and also pseudo religions (like communism or national socialism). They are all endangered by science. That is why they are never benefitial to science and progress, but will always try to discredit or destroy it.

[TallDave]

I can't see how throwing the Sunni's out of work because the Shia's left accomplishes anything useful.

A good point, and one later acknowledged by Petraeus, who started paying the old Sunni general class pensions.

You have to realize though, the old Iraqi Army was not viable in new Iraq. It was ridiculously top-heavy with hundreds of patronage generals loyal to Saddam (they actually had more generals than the U.S. armed forces) and order was maintained not by NCOs but by branches of the secret polices, who literally had guns to the the heads of Shia conscripts.

I hate to be rude, but it appears to me that the Sunnis are smarter and have a more serious attitude than the Shia's . That's why they were running Iraq, though they were a minority. Of the two groups, I think the Sunnis were a much worse adversary.

The Iraai Shia are generally of the Najaf quietist school. They saw relatively little of the oil wealth, so they tend to be uneducated. The Sunnis were going to hate us no matter what, but they're only 15-20% of the population whereas Shia are about 50%.

We could have been gentle and hands-off if we hadn't made those two serious mistakes.

Yes, they were mistakes, but we couldn't have had soldiers on every corner and claimed to be hands-off. It was only in 2005-2006 that it became clear Iraqi self-governance had devolved into gangster rule.

The lesson there is: never worry more about perception than reality. Had we surged from the start, the occupation would have been over in 2005.

The Screw up in Iraq, created the conditions that led to Obama and a Democrat Congress

No doubt about that. But it looks like that will end in 11 months.

[Diogenes]

Mussorgsky ? No.

Well John Williams got inspired by night on the bare mountain when he wrote the soundtrack to jaws
Pictures of an exhibition is also very, very famous. Mussorgsky was one of the romantic "programm musicians". His music would tell a story, or describe a scenery. Very nice.
You should also try Franz Liszt. He too made programm music. His "Preludes" are fantastic.

Liszt I am familiar with.

Learning about evolution is only important to those people who want to be involved in that branch of Science. It serves no real benefit to the vast majority of people who learn about it.

This is where we are differing again. I say that no matter what it is, real knowledge is never wrong. The more you know, the less likely you are to fall for some scam or a "Fuehrer" that will try to use your lack of knowledge to his advantage. Knowledge is power! Science is knowledge!
ID is not knowledgem it is not even religion (most christians dont even take it serious anymore), it is a waste of brain capacity.

I think your view is correct as far as it goes. It does however (in my opinion) overlook the advantage of the "Santa Claus effect." Many people are well behaved because they believe in this stuff. Many peoples lives and reasons for existence hinge upon their beliefs. I think this area is a case where we are better off leaving well enough alone.

Some people (who take the Bible absolutely literally) believe that Evolution damages their faith.

Exactly, because it does. It is the same with all religions and also pseudo religions (like communism or national socialism). They are all endangered by science. That is why they are never benefitial to science and progress, but will always try to discredit or destroy it.

Not all science. Just the science which attacks the basis of their faith. Again, I think people underestimate the benefits of the "Santa Claus effect. " So What if people believe a little white lie? At least they behave better as a result.

If all the people realized their significance in the overall scheme of things, that they are like bacteria on a little ball of dirt in a nearly infinite expanse of space, and that this planet, and everything that makes up their existence will be nothing but burnt cinders in 5 billion years or so, I suspect they wouldn't be stoic about it.

It's like taking a toy away from an autistic child. The toy does nothing useful for the child other than making it feel better, but what's wrong with that?

Let the Children play with their toys rather than mocking them because others don't need them.

[Skipjack]

Many people are well behaved because they believe in this stuff.

Hmm, that depends. It is not always the case. Read up on Austro Fascism and Dollfuss. They were the catholic version of the Nazis and Hitler.
In a way they paved the way for Hitler in Austria. A lot of people liked Hitler because he did away with the Austro fascists. My family lost everything to these catholic bastards.

[Diogenes]

Yes, they were mistakes, but we couldn't have had soldiers on every corner and claimed to be hands-off. It was only in 2005-2006 that it became clear Iraqi self-governance had devolved into gangster rule.

The lesson there is: never worry more about perception than reality. Had we surged from the start, the occupation would have been over in 2005.

I had breakfast with an old friend who was a Captain in the Marine corp. We discussed this very issue, and he assures me that officers in Iraq thought about the consequences of the Bremer Decisions. He thinks that many officers were probably intimidated against speaking up because of the Rampant PC mindset in the Military nowadays. I told him that it was their duty to speak up, and he agreed. Perhaps they did, but we just didn't hear of it.

We also discussed the Patricia Schroeder induced stupidity of Having Women used as Soldiers in Arab countries. In their culture, it is a horrible insult for a Man to be ordered to do anything by a woman. It is easy to see why they would hate us for attempting to impose "our" liberal morality on their culture.

The Screw up in Iraq, created the conditions that led to Obama and a Democrat Congress

No doubt about that. But it looks like that will end in 11 months.

Not all of the consequences. We have already replaced a moderate Supreme Court Justice with a Far left nut. Harry Reid is reportedly enacting provisions in his Health Care bill (specifically the "Death Panels") that will require a 2/3rds super majority to remove. (A Virtual impossibility) And the money is being rolled off the Printing presses like toilet paper in the bathroom. We are borrowing and spending ourselves into poverty, and the Liberals are enriching their friends from the public trough as we speak. This money will be used against us in the future.


The future is so bright I gotta wear shades.
[/sarcasm]

[Diogenes]

Humanists had the humanity to create a just and caring society. Religions generally gave us atrocities "in God's Name".

Your citations Please ?

[Skipjack]

Well humanists have done some atrocities in the name of humanism as well. Just think of the french revolution (which is not entire the fault of humanism though).
That said however, religions are pretty good at committing atrocities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30-year_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade

It is worth noting in this context that the 4th crusade was directly responsible for the subsequent decline of the Byzantine empire, which finally lead to the fall of Constantinople into the hands of the Ottomans. This in return lead to their invasion of the rest of Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia_of_Alexandria

Just to name a few that come to my mind here.

[MSimon]

Uhm, the britts have long left that country.

Well they are gone from America too. And yet culturally America is a British country. As is India. And Hong Kong is devouring (culturally) China.