Definitely another drug thread.

[MSimon]

Here is some history of morphine use

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/casey1.htm

They claim 2 to 3 grains a day to replace heavy alcohol use.

Now will a cheaper price help the addicts? Some.

Who will it really help? Everyone else.

From the link:

Late in the 1800s, morphine was prescribed commonly as a sub- stitute for "alcohol addiction"; the practice continued until late in the 1930s. Dr. J. R. Black, in a paper entitled "Advantages of Substituting the Morphia Habit for the Incurably Alcoholic," published in the Cincinnati Lancet-Clinic in 1889, had the following praise for morphine in the alcoholic treatment regimen:

[Morphine] "is less inimical to healthy life than alcohol... [It] calms in place of exciting the baser passions, and hence is less productive of acts of violence and crime; in short-the use of morphine in place of alcohol is but a choice of evils, and by far the lesser-On the score of economy the morphine habit is by far the better. The regular whisky drinker can be made content in his craving for stimulation, at least for quite a long time, on two or three grains of morphine a day, divided into appropriate portions, and given at regular intervals. If purchased by the drach at fifty cents this will last him twenty days" (Brecher, 1972).

Government’s Greatest Trick - Making you a slave to your fears.

[randomencounter]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you who are continually arguing for repeal of drug prohibition, are drug users?

TDPerk, williatw, Skippy, randomencounter, AcesHigh and of course Simon and anyone else who wants to be included on that list: please tell us all:

a) are you a user?
b) have you ever been to "skid row" where you can expect to find the people who's lives have been the most drastically affected by drugs?
c) have you ever been close friends or family with a drug user and if so, what can you note about their behavior?

Just asking because really, for me this whole issue boils down to recognition of what a powerful force for evil drugs are. If you meet with and talk to the people who's lives have been utterly ruined, you can't help but accept that drugs should be illegal. You might then go on to argue that rehab is better than incarceration, and I'll own its certainly cheaper; but you can't say you think people ought to have access to illegal drugs; and just because we haven't been able to cut all access doesn't mean we can't or won't in the future.

So really I want to know, all you who are advocating for the end of drug prohibition, what do you really know about the effects of drugs on people? Have you ever talked with a prostitute or a homeless person or is it all just theory to you?

I have had to assist in the removal of addicts from the home of a family member before. I am no fan of drugs. I favor legalization despite my personal experience.

What's your story?

[MSimon]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you who are continually arguing for repeal of drug prohibition, are drug users?

TDPerk, williatw, Skippy, randomencounter, AcesHigh and of course Simon and anyone else who wants to be included on that list: please tell us all:

a) are you a user?
b) have you ever been to "skid row" where you can expect to find the people who's lives have been the most drastically affected by drugs?
c) have you ever been close friends or family with a drug user and if so, what can you note about their behavior?

Just asking because really, for me this whole issue boils down to recognition of what a powerful force for evil drugs are. If you meet with and talk to the people who's lives have been utterly ruined, you can't help but accept that drugs should be illegal. You might then go on to argue that rehab is better than incarceration, and I'll own its certainly cheaper; but you can't say you think people ought to have access to illegal drugs; and just because we haven't been able to cut all access doesn't mean we can't or won't in the future.

So really I want to know, all you who are advocating for the end of drug prohibition, what do you really know about the effects of drugs on people? Have you ever talked with a prostitute or a homeless person or is it all just theory to you?

I have had to assist in the removal of addicts from the home of a family member before. I am no fan of drugs. I favor legalization despite my personal experience.

What's your story?

I'm curious - was the problem with the addicts their behavior - i.e. lassitude. Or was it an economic problem - stealing to support their habits. If both which was the most bothersome?

[GIThruster]

I have already said about my background but to restate, I was a very heavy, daily user of all sorts from age 12 to 18 at which point I got clean and straightened out my life. I haven't used in 33 years, but I know the drug culture from inside. I know that it is true to say there are no honest users. They're all liars, cheaters, thieves, disloyal, untrustworthy, pathetic. That's what addiction does to people.

I also worked with the homeless on the streets of Portland for years, so I am accustomed to going to those parts of town sensible people avoid, meeting and talking with people that those like AcesHigh have never once come across. I asked about people's experiences, because people like Aces know they've made an effort all their lives to stay away from those people, and their take on the situation is therefore all theoretical. These are people who are otherwise sensible and yet who are as far from correct on the issue as they could be, primarily because they don't know anything about drugs and especially the drug culture.

So just saying folks, compare the dictates of common sense against the psychotic ramblings of an addict. Just noting for you again: Simon is a parasite. He sits at home all day long, blogging and pretending this is some noble cause, when in fact it's just a diagnosable obsession. He needs some form of authentication that makes his worthless life appear worthwhile, and he believes writing for the half dozen or so people who read his rants authenticates his unbelievably selfish, pathetic existence. That selfish, pathetic existence is the result of drugs. It is the drugs that are to blame Simon never finished school, never had a good job in his field, never developed a rewarding career, never earned the respect and admiration of those around him, never learned how to support himself, ever became a parasite on the back of humanity. It's the drugs that did all this.

What Simon says to himself is something like "My sitting at home and smoking dope all day is justified by ______ " fill the blank.

If you can't see how crazy that sort of existence is, you shouldn't be posting your ignorance to these threads.

[MSimon]

I know that it is true to say there are no honest users. They're all liars, cheaters, thieves, disloyal, untrustworthy, pathetic. That's what addiction does to people.

Funny. My experience is different. But I tend to attract the honest in any case. The dishonest find me difficult to deal with.

In any case what you see is the result of persecution.

It mirrors what too many used to think of Jews and many still do.

Just look at what you have said and now compare it to the slurs against Jews. Interesting no?

You have only studied the surface of these matters. I have gone deep.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 39.9713351

Government’s Greatest Trick - Making you a slave to your fears.

[randomencounter]

I have had to assist in the removal of addicts from the home of a family member before. I am no fan of drugs. I favor legalization despite my personal experience.

What's your story?

I'm curious - was the problem with the addicts their behavior - i.e. lassitude. Or was it an economic problem - stealing to support their habits. If both which was the most bothersome?

Behavior was the big problem. We were quite concerned for my relative's safety, and that something might happen that would force police involvement.

Getting the police involved is almost never a good idea if a situation can be handled without them.

[GIThruster]

You're lying, Simon.

No surprise there.

I haven't "studied the surface". To this day, I still have many friends who are users. I'm not exaggerating when I say that none of them are trustworthy. I should perhaps say they're more close acquaintances. The girls I buy my coffee from each morning. The people at the deli. The girl at the dry cleaners. The guys down at CVS. I even know the guy who delivers drugs at 1AM at the local Wawa each night, yes, an authentic dealer.

And as I said, I worked with the homeless for years.

You can stop making up your pathetic stories that I hate or that I persecute. I do neither. As far as I'm concerned, all these lives are redeemable, including yours; but the first step to healing is to recognize you have this disease. There's no helping a man who doesn't want help.

[Diogenes]

One more time I made no threats, I didn't suggest myself or anyone "call anything down" on anybody. You made the abusive borderline threatening comments in a private message not me.

F*ck you up your @ss you little p*ssy faggot!

Have no fear, I never had any intention of F***** you up your @ss. It was just an expression. I am sorry you regarded it as a threat.

That being said, I sent it to you in private because I thought it would be a little too humiliating to you if I said it in public. Good to see you're not embarrassed. Given how many times you've drawn attention to, it I would possibly be closer to the mark to suggest you were somewhat proud of it. NTTAWWTIYKWIMAITYD.

I seem to recall you threatening Skipjack with bodily harm some months ago.

I think it was more along the lines of "If you said such a thing to my face I would attempt to knock your teeth down your throat. " Or some such. (Similar to your response to me.) Not quite the same thing as suggesting the local law enforcement needs to grab me and seize my assets. A fight is one thing, destroying someone's life is another.

I said forfeiture of assets is a logical progression of the war on drugs

No, you personalized it. You said the Forfeiture of MY Assets, and MY freedom. It was not some reference to a theoretical "other man" it was an explicit reference to wishing injury to me and mine specifically.

and as such the targets will be increasingly the more affluent, those with assets worth taking.

And you simply do not recognize that the same thing will happen if crime explodes as a result of legalization?

Destroy a society and you will get a Mao. Drugs will bring a police state faster.

[seedload]

I know that it is true to say there are no honest users. They're all liars, cheaters, thieves, disloyal, untrustworthy, pathetic. That's what addiction does to people.

In any case what you see is the result of persecution.

Addicts, in the midst of their abuse, will often feel persecuted by their family and friends. They think this persecution is unfair persecution for being addicts. Later, in recovery, if they are fortunate to live that long, they realize that the persecution they felt was not for being addicted, but was a misinterpretation of the anger that others felt towards the fact that they were cheaters, thieves, disloyal, untrustworthy, and pathetic. Addicts want love despite what they do. When they don't get it, they don't understand why and feel unfairly persecuted. At least that is what addicts tell me.

I have heard hundreds of recovering addicts admit to being cheaters, thieves, disloyal, untrustworthy and pathetic. I have heard few claim that they were unfairly persecuted. That claim seems uniquely reserved for when they were using.

[MSimon]

Addicts, in the midst of their abuse, will often feel persecuted by their family and friends. They think this persecution is unfair persecution for being addicts.

But they ARE persecuted and hunted down by the law. SWAT Teams (gestapo raids) at 3AM ring a bell?

The deal is that you have done this to your children. And they are revolting. Quietly so far - Colorado ring a bell? But who knows? If it gets bad enough they might take up arms against you. Is that really what you want?

And if you consider the laws before 1914 the persecution is unfair. What is the point of persecuting those whose body chemistry is different from yours? I'm sure you have a rational answer for that.

When you consider that at least 30% of them got the body chemistry from child abuse and other causes of PTSD the persecution is monstrous. Fortunately your conscience is clear.

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. Clive Staples "CS" Lewis

[MSimon]

BTW the stats on female heroin users is 70% of them were sexually abused in childhood.

But your conscience is clear.

Here is what got me started on the Chronic Drug Use is Caused by Chronic Pain track. The important thing is to read Dr.Shavelson's book. The drug war in essence is a persecution of tortured children.

<snip>

Approximately 70% of the women in drug rehab experienced sexual abuse before they started on drugs. In other words, those heroin addicts not in actual physical pain are suffering from severe post traumatic stress disorder, PTSD. What is the preferred treatment in America today for these hurt and humiliated souls?

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2004/09/heroin.html

The preferred treatment is to hunt them down like dogs and give them 3AM gestapo raids. Unless they give up their vile habits. Then they can go into rehab.

[Diogenes]

As moderator, Simon has access to everyone's email address, which can be used to track someone down. Also note that several times Simon has referred to and explained "swatting" which is to make a fraudulent claim to the police that someone is breaking the law in order to get the local swat team to kick down their door.

So william, when you write that you want to see this sort of thing happen to someone who argues against your position concerning drugs, you are walking the line of what is actionable, both civilly and criminally.

I don't have any worries regarding Simon divulging private information about me. I have known him (through the internet) for years, and I believe he has as at least as strong a core conviction about integrity as he does about drug legalization.

I also don't worry about Joe Strout, the Owner/Administrator of this website. The larger worry is about whether or not hackers can jack their database if sufficiently motivated to do so.

As you mentioned, it is not a good idea to suggest that some actual harm ought to fall on someone because it leaves the suggester vulnerable both civilly and criminally. Getting caught in the system is a horror story, even for the innocent, and suggesting that an all too real occurrence "ought" happen to someone is just asking to be noticed by the system if something such as that should actually come to pass.

Paterico, Erick Erickson et al have notified their local law enforcement agencies that they might soon become the victim of a "swatting" attack, and as a result it has helped to insure that law enforcement officers operated with good judgement and caution. I am left wondering if a similar precaution might not be prudent on my part.

[MSimon]

And for all of you who believe in prohibition and know druggies (guess prohibition isn't working eh?), why aren't you turning them in? Don't you understand that you are undermining your own cause?

How can prohibition work if you are not helping the police prosecute it? Friendship as an excuse? Relationship as an excuse? Weak minded cowardice seems to be a better answer.

I can't wait to hear the answers to this one.

[MSimon]

I don't have any worries regarding Simon divulging private information about me. I have known him (through the internet) for years, and I believe he has as at least as strong a core conviction about integrity as he does about drug legalization.

Well thank you D. And yes. Having lived a thoroughly dishonorable life for a while (anything short of murder) I decided it wasn't the person I wanted to be. I had my come to Jesus moment so to speak.

And those SWAT teams that worry you? The Drug War was the excuse for building them. Now they are not just for dopers anymore.

YOU gave the government the power. And now you fear it. It would have been wiser to fear it before you gave them the power.

Any power you give to government will eventually be used against YOU.

[GIThruster]

SWAT teams don't bust addicts. They bust dealers.

People don't turn in addicts because we feel sorry for them and recognize they're not beyond repair. Even lifelong addict like you Simon, who has consistently demonstrated an inability to get his shit in order, could straighten up his life he he wanted to. I think you deserve every chance people can give you. Call it "freedom to fail".