US Bashing

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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

1. Did we expend too much of our political capital on our unilateral action? Do the benefits of the solution measure up to the costs? Both in lives and ability to gain support from other countries? I hesitate to sully the discussion with dollars, but there's that, too.
We won't know the answer to that for 10 or 40 years.

If self government spreads through the ME and autocracy declines because of Iraq (it is already moving Saudi Arabia some) it will be worth it.

In 1954 a whole lot of people thought defending South Korea was a waste. It was practically a dictatorship. Now? Self governing and doing rather well economically. The same goes for our less expensive defense of Taiwan.

All I can say at this point is that the start looks promising.

It is like many other big endeavors in life. First you invest, and invest, and invest. Then, if the investment was chosen wisely and you are lucky you get your reward. And of course the most profitable investments are those where few see an opportunity. Of course there is always the risk that the majority is correct.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

It also seems quite a lot of a coincidence to me that Iran is daring to do their nuclear programme now, why now?

They have had a nuclear program for at least 20 years. It is just starting to bear fruit. They didn't just do it now.
First Iraq wont do anything against it (no military power anymore).
Best trained native Army in the ME. And they have actual fighting experience. They will be no push over. And if so inclined they could take (at very high cost) Iran. IMO.

BTW re: Iran. You seem to have left out the Israelis. Glaring oversight.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Nanos
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Post by Nanos »

I find debate useful, and learn a lot, and its quite common I learn things that I didn't know before and it changes my opinion about things. It can take a long time, but none the less I find it generally useful and without it I'd have a very blinkered view of the world limited to just my own experiences.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

MSimon,

Have you seen the agreements for the Iraqi Air Force? They have dozens of F-16s and other high-tech armaments being delivered over the next few years. That will pretty much end any notion of military parity with Iran -- which, unlike Iraq, is facing bankrupty at $50/bbl oil.

Already, we're seeing Iraq gravitate toward other liberal democracies and away from Syria and Iran, who are still sending armed groups into the country to foment rebellion against the elected gov't. I would not be surprised if they are signing deals with Israel by 2020.

seedload,

And yet everyone still wants to come to the U.S. to work.

We're still the richest, freest society on Earth.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Dave,

I was not aware of that. Do you have a post up on it?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Mike Holmes
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Post by Mike Holmes »

I wouldn't want to pick favorites in yet another Iran/Iraq conflict. The problem is that, experience and equipment aside, the way they fight wars tends not to be conclusive. Basically their armies don't seem to have the will to actually bring the fight to the enemy. Again, it has to do with the culture that says that family is everything, and the state meaningless. If the state isn't worth defending, why shoult I the soldier put my life on the line?

What do I care who rules? They're all corrupt anyway?

This is the Arab mindset. With such an army, it's hard to win battles. Much less wars. (If the conflict is tribal, on the other hand, you get Darfur).

That said, the effect in Iran will be the same as if Iraq was a threat. They've been at war so much already that they can't help but worry about it. Their one amelioration this time is that the ruling party in Iraq isn't now distinctly Sunni. They can hope that Shiite contingents in the Iraqi government will be somewhat more conciliatory towards Iran.

But they won't trust it.

Mike

gblaze42
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Post by gblaze42 »

Skipjack wrote:Did I blame a political party?
I just said that the war was unreasonable and unneeded.
I think those numbers are not correct.
When Saddam Hussein was leading that country people might not have been allowed to say what they wanted on the street, but they were able to go on the street without having to be affraid to be blasted into pieces by some fanatic, or shot at, or worse.
He was a horrible man, but as sad as it might sound, he was what kept the country from turning into what it is now. Now there are terrorists there, now there are religious fanatics, now there are more people there that hate the US than ever before.
And one more thing: I do have a pretty good memory and I have seen revisionist history here in Europe in the past 60 years plentiful.
Thanks

I hate get mixed up in political stuff but I have to say this;

The Iraqi people had to deal with a lot worse with Saddam in charge. You forget he used his own people as shield against the US forces.

http://tiny.cc/C4uRp


Also the practical genocide of the Kurds.

http://tiny.cc/9tX77


There were terrorist then too, they were just called Fedayeen Saddam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen_Saddam


Yes there was so much peace with this guy. I'm sure everyone felt warm and fuzzy with him in charge. /JK
Last edited by gblaze42 on Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

And we didn't even get into his draining The marshes in the south - an ecological disaster - in order to destroy the Marsh Arabs. The new government is allowing the water to flow again.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

zbarlici
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Post by zbarlici »

"Should we cease debating because it's just "a difference of opinion?" Isn't the point of debate to try to change people's minds on these subjects? So that their opinion changes?"

i dont beleive i insinuated that debating is wrong

Mike Holmes
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Post by Mike Holmes »

I admitted that I might not have gotten your point. I still do not, apparently. Could you try again?

Mike

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

gblaze, are you trying to be funny? Are you? You are not.
You are also obviously incapable of reading what I said.
I said that he was bad (!!!!!). He was a bastard and of course we all know that many people died with him in charge.
All I was saying was that with him gone things have NOT changed for the better. You can say whatever you want, it is not true. There are still kurds getting killed and kurds fighting against other people in the country.
Now there are also constant clashes between Sunies and Shiits. And before there was no Al Quaida in Iraq, now that country is one of their favorite places to find new recruits. Well done!
If it was not so, then why is the US still there anyway? If everything was so great and peachy keen there, then why do US troops have to stay there? You know why, because without the US troops it would be chaos and anarchy there within a matter of a few weeks.
It is also a fact that when Iraq was still strong, Iran was weakened both economically and militarically by the ongoing conflict with Iraq. Now that Iraq is out of the picture, they can pretty much do whatever they want and they are doing it. Or has their nuclear program stopped yet? That would be news to me? HAS IT?
So tell me how things got any better or more stable there? A nuclear powered Iran does not sound stable or better to me.
Does it to you?

BSPhysics
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Post by BSPhysics »

"The reason why he was not removed during the first golf war, or at least some time before he finally was captured was that everyone back then KNEW that he was a stabilizing factor in the region. "


Stabilizing? Well in excess of a million people died because of wars he started and executions he ordered. President G.H.W. Bush was interested in a united coalition versus Iraq which means Saudi Arabia needed to be included (we needed the real estate to help launch the war). The Saudi's would have never agreed had it meant the US being percieved as "occupiers" of Iraq instead of "liberators" of Kuwait. Usama Bin Laden's main impetus for starting and financing Al Qaeda came from "infedels" launching a war against a fellow Sunni from his Holy Land. It's this very negative reaction that President Bush and the Saudi's wanted to avoid. But, the Saudi's were desperately afraid of Saddam's intentions and felt they were next. Thus, the war.

NO ONE believed Saddam to be a stabilizing force in the region. I will grant you that there was a fear of making the problem worse by prosecuting the war. But history has definitely shown that the first Gulf War was a success for the whole region. Except, maybe the Iraqi's.


BS

BSPhysics
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Post by BSPhysics »

"So tell me how things got any better or more stable there? A nuclear powered Iran does not sound stable or better to me. "

The US presence in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with Iran's nuclear program. They would pursue nuclear weapons regardless of any decision we make. The fault lies on those pursuing the weapons and making the unreasonable threats in the region. Not on the US for "provoking" them. In fact, I would argue that our military presence in Iran and Afghanistan and the success we are having is putting unwanted political pressure on the Mullah's and Achmedinajihad which means that the Iraq War is having more success than anticipated initially.

More stable you ask? How about the first semblance of a democracy in Iraq, EVER. Those people are free. Fragile, but free nonetheless. With time and resolve, the strides toward self sustained peace will form. How about President Bush and General Petraeus both recommending troop drawdowns and a complete removal by December 2011? If successful, and it's looking more and more likely, I call that stability. Saddam's idea of stability is no comparison.


BS

gblaze42
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Post by gblaze42 »

BSPhysics wrote:"So tell me how things got any better or more stable there? A nuclear powered Iran does not sound stable or better to me. "

The US presence in Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with Iran's nuclear program. They would pursue nuclear weapons regardless of any decision we make. The fault lies on those pursuing the weapons and making the unreasonable threats in the region. Not on the US for "provoking" them. In fact, I would argue that our military presence in Iran and Afghanistan and the success we are having is putting unwanted political pressure on the Mullah's and Achmedinajihad which means that the Iraq War is having more success than anticipated initially.

More stable you ask? How about the first semblance of a democracy in Iraq, EVER. Those people are free. Fragile, but free nonetheless. With time and resolve, the strides toward self sustained peace will form. How about President Bush and General Petraeus both recommending troop drawdowns and a complete removal by December 2011? If successful, and it's looking more and more likely, I call that stability. Saddam's idea of stability is no comparison.

BS
Couldn't have said it better.

ravingdave
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Post by ravingdave »

JohnSmith wrote:Of course it's threatening. That's why Russia is rearming itself, and planning to bomb the shit out of any missile defense systems places oh-so convieniently near their borders.
That's why Iraq hates the US, and their government is refusing the US the right to stick around long term.
That's why us Canadians are getting more and more wary of sitting next to someone that nobody likes much. ( And they persist in saying we don't get lots of arctic that we claimed years ago. :P )

What? You haven't heard any of that? You must be living in an alternate universe.

Ah, that felt good.
Sorry Simon, I had to reply to that rant with one of my own.

The US (and canada) is behind the developed world in a lot of ways. We've got worse cell/internet infrastructure, we've got worse roads, we've got worse health care (than some places). The education is definitely lacking in North America.

And yeah, the US is really powerful. Nobody likes to know that there's somebody bigger and stronger watching them. Especially when they know that the big guy is just waiting to jump in unasked.


On the Cell/Internet infrastructure, I have read that countries such as India are eskewing copper cable phone systems in place of cell systems. The U.S., having first developed a massive and extensive copper cable system has gone slower in building out cell/internet because of a desire to maximize the return on existing assets. Countries without a built out copper system face no such dilema. Hence they go straight to RF carrier/fiber infrastructure.


Secondly, have you seen the movie "Team America" ? It is not that far from the truth.


Yes, most of the world hates us because we unilaterially invaded Iraq. Part of the reason it was Unilateral (thereby occasioning much of the hate) was the fact that so many nations were in bed with Sadam's government that it was in their financial interests to oppose the US messing up their gravy train. (French connections appear to be particularly ubiquitous)

I was not happy about Bush launching a war against Iraq, I figured the suffering of people in other countries is regretable but none of our buisness. Sadam making Nuclear weapons was our buisness only insofar as they represented a threat to US and our allies.

The fact that much of the information about the WMD program turned out to be false is unfortunate and resulted in many deaths and much loss of respect for the U.S. but the consequences of nukes being given to or stolen by terrorists, or Sadam attacking Israel to "Unite" the Arab peoples was too serious to allow any other outcome.


As a police officer occasionally shoots an unarmed man because the man was carrying a pair of sunglasses or some such is very unfortunate but from the police officer's perspective, there is no other reasonable alternative.


Beyond that, I have to give George Bush credit for one thing. No other American President has ever before done any significant thing to attempt to create peace in the middle east. We have Jimmy Carter to thank for creating the Mess in Iran, and thereby creating the Mess in Iraq, but no one seems to blame him for that.


David

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