2010:warmest year ever since records began

[Skipjack]

Well Msimon, I keep saying it, but you choose to ignore it:
The legalization of prostitution has done NOTHING to clean it up. It is still run by the same criminals. Many of these women (if not most) are still forced into prostitution. Women are still trafficked from other countries into Austria to become prostitutes here. The pimps are still scumbags. Women that resist are still mamed brutally, etc, etc.
So if it did not do anything good in regards to prostitution, why would it do anything good in regards to drugs?
The alcohol prohibition does not really count, IMHO. It was silly for many reasons. The biggest one probably be that there was very little acceptance of it in the general population. This is very different for drug prohibition.
No, IMHO the only thing that a drug legalization would do is, what the legalization of prostitution has done here:
The biggest criminals can appear as role models on national TV.
Here it is "night club owners" that dance at the opera ball and shake hands with presidents. Once you legalize drugs, you will have the same with drug dealer scumbags. IMHO, gangsters should not have a place in society.

[Betruger]

You don't think that prostitution's product being humans instead of chemicals makes it an outlier? What about prohibition of cock fighting and the social correlations of enabling (in legalization) that subculture? It's apples and oranges WRT to drug/alcohol/cigarette prohibition. Prostitution might be legal but it's morally marginalized. It's not at all a mainstream market. Sex is still taboo.

What about a society that embraces drug use comprehensively (because of the wide variety of compounds) the same way it has alcohol spirits, beers, wines, etc, and tobacco products? Wouldn't such a society establish a compelling demand for scientifically-supported optimization of drugs (the same way we've optimized alcohol products: e.g. common beer's ~5% convention, or pharma industry's various and numerous standards)? How would gangster dealers survive such a market when most of the population arguably would vastly prefer getting their fix from Walgreens? From producers under the same QA pressure as for almost any other common product today, instead of from gangsters effectively encouraged to cut their dope with neutral or toxic filler?


If there's an argument that IMO serves the pro-prohibition side, it's one like the Inuit genetic population's (IIRC) markedly stronger response to alcohol and the damage that can arguably be attributed to legalization there.

[MSimon]

the Inuit

Darwin in action. Evidently they are not well adapted to alcohol. Perhaps a wider range of available drugs would better serve their needs.

Ibuprofin or aspirin? Suppose Ibuprofin was removed due to fear of liver damage and aspirin due to fears of internal bleeding? (real problems BTW) Then what?

Do we normally deny the many because of the problems of a few? Perhaps peanuts are next.

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives ... lse_a.html

Let me add that it looks to me like the forces of control are breaking down all over the world. In so many areas. The forces of "We will make you do it for your own good are in temporary retreat. There will be excesses. And the pendulum will swing.

====

The prostitution question is an interesting one. Perhaps the problem is a lack of brothels? i.e. protection for the ladies. And there is something else - some women from abusive homes want to be abused and controlled. All such relationships are to a greater or lesser extent voluntary. And that leads us to root cause discussions. What to do about bad parenting? Hard to say. Every child's needs are different.

Here is what Graham Greene has to say about who can be given rough justice and torture in his novel of the cold war Our Man In Havana:

"The poor in my own country, in any Latin American country. The poor of Central Europe and the Orient. Of course in your welfare states you have no poor, so you are untorturable. In Cuba the police can deal as harshly as they like with emigres from Latin America and the Baltic States, but not with visitors from your country or Scandinavia. It is an instinctive matter on both sides. Catholics are more torturable than Protestants, just as they are more criminal."

Excerpted from my post about torture and the Drug War:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... f-all.html

[Betruger]

Ibuprofen intoxication - I was going to say that. I couldn't remember if it was that or Aspirin.

Anyway. Prostitutes and drugs aren't comparable. Or if they're comparable, they're not similar enough where it matters for arguing the relative merits/demerits of prohibiting/legalizing them.

Do we normally deny the many because of the problems of a few? Perhaps peanuts are next.

Some glues known to be sniffed are regulated. Dynamite is regulated. I think it's pretty clear that hard drugs should be regulated, if not privately (just like it's left to individuals to drink responsibly now) then as govt does for e.g. dynamite, so that you can firecracker yourself into chemical relief instead of dynamiting your brains into coma. The chemistry just needs to be tamed. Obviously gangsters aren't who you'd hire for that job. I doubt that chem/pharma industry couldn't tackle that problem of designing drugs for clean and accurate neurochemical targets.

Not only that but I think that on top of being duly left to individual choice and treating those that naturally need the compounds for their health, the industrial motivation to satisfy the market would have some great consequences for neurochemical knowledge.

[KitemanSA]

Well Msimon, I keep saying it, but you choose to ignore it:
The legalization of prostitution has done NOTHING to clean it up. It is still run by the same criminals. Many of these women (if not most) are still forced into prostitution. Women are still trafficked from other countries into Austria to become prostitutes here. The pimps are still scumbags. Women that resist are still mamed brutally, etc, etc.

First, sex, unlike drugs, is a primal drive that exists without having to be "addicted" to it. Honorable, responsible young men will try HARD (sorry) to get it in the most socially acceptable way. For some, unfortunately, if all other routes are blocked, resort to rape. Personally, I think prostitution is a more socially acceptable alternative.

However, wrt scum-bag pimps, etc; I have a question for you. What percentage of the prostitutes in your country are addicted to drugs? In the US, I believe you will find that most are, except those in places where it is legal. Legalize drugs and that control mechanism goes away.

The other major mechanism whereby scumbag pimps can maintain a stable of prostitutes is to bring them from another country to a place where they have NO ONE to turn to. This is slavery, not prostitution, and that pimp should be put away forever, if not shot. Why is your government so lax wrt hideous crime? Personally, I suspect it is because their sense of right and wrong has been so perverted by years of "felonization" of vice that they can't distinguish vice from crime. This appears, from discussions herein, to be a common malady.

[Diogenes]

You are already counting the benefits of your social engineering scheme.

The social engineering scheme (it was championed by the Progressives of the time which ought to give you a clue) is prohibition.

I did some reading yesterday while waiting in an office. The article was about Wayne Wheeler and the Anti Saloon League. Interestingly enough, the only OTHER cause championed by the Anti Saloon League was Women's suffrage, which they championed strongly because it was felt that Women's votes would make the difference between success and failure regarding prohibition. AS a matter of fact, the Anti Saloon league appears to be the dominant force behind women's suffrage. Both goals were obtained within a short time of each other.

I am interested in hearing what MSimon thinks regarding the link between Prohibition and Votes for Women. Are you implying that since the "Progressives" were such morons, that this was also a stupid thing that they did?

So unengineering is now called engineering? I'm going to have to learn me more of that there New Speak language so we can communicate properly.

Modifying existing society to be more like what you want is the very essence of Social engineering. The current and long term default position of society is that Drugs are bad, and result in bad consequences for society. The long term evidence for this mindset is apparent from the fact that Prohibition was passed into law nearly a century ago, (as you are so fond of pointing out.) which would not have been possible had people not felt that it was destructive to society.

The point is, Society has had little tolerance for illegal narcotics for a very long time, and attempts to change that attitude are nothing but social engineering.

As to the benefits? I just look at alcohol prohibition and extrapolate. Or maybe extrapolate from Portugal. Or Switzerland.

If I were a betting man I'd bet you are outraged at municipal pensions. Now if you want to reduce those you are going to have to reduce manpower.

And/or Wages. The places we need to reduce are the bureaucrats, not law enforcement.

And the easiest thing to do is to stop doing what isn't working. Alcohol prohibition didn't work. Drug prohibition is not working. Kids can get illegal drugs easier than they can get a beer.

That is nonsense. They can find beer in many refrigerators of many parents homes. Just the cost differential alone ( $20.00 for a small rock of crack vs. $1.00 for a beer? ) demonstrates that assertion to be nonsense. I can't fathom why you keep repeating it. I certainly don't understand how you can believe it.

Based on your own anecdotes the drug war isn't working. What ever bad you saw wasn't prevented by the drug laws.

No, but it certainly would be accelerated by making it legal! Optimization does not mean 100 % efficiency. It means "The best we can do." With the current level of will power re stopping drugs, what we have now is the best we can do.

If we started executing drug dealers, we would definitely see an improvement in the situation.

Prohibition is an awful flop.
We like it.
It can't stop what it's meant to stop.
We like it.
It's left a trail of graft and slime,
It won't prohibit worth a dime,
It's filled our land with vice and crime.
Nevertheless, we're for it.

Franklin P. Adams, 1931

Oh yes, let's base our reasoning on a bit of doggerel penned by someone with an opinion that is more than likely biased.

[MSimon]

It is true that drugs are not a primal need. Normally the body makes enough of its own drugs to fill the receptors. Only a small segment of the population needs to take supplements.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... holes.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... sease.html

Which minds me. Is it proper to punish those with a genetic deficiency disease for their deficiency? Only among our most moral.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ystem.html

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... ation.html

Now if what we call "addiction" is really self medication for a chronic deficiency disease. Well that is how the medical profession looks at it these days.

[Skipjack]

Prostitution might be legal but it's morally marginalized. It's not at all a mainstream market. Sex is still taboo.

In the US it may be a taboo, here it is absolutely not. I mean like really, really the opposite. We have more nudity on free TV than you guys in a porn shop. Heck people are running arround naked in the public parks.
So no, that argument I wont let you get away with, sorry.

What about prohibition of cock fighting and the social correlations of enabling (in legalization) that subculture?

I am absolutely for banning this. I consider it animal torture and barbaric.
I am all for eating animals and I love my meat, but I do respect animals and the food I eat. I dont think it is necessary to engage in unnecessary cruelty.

How would gangster dealers survive such a market when most of the population arguably would vastly prefer getting their fix from Walgreens?

The same way that the mafia here still survives managing prostitution and gambling. As I said, it is still a problem here.
Women still get aducted from poorer countries, smuggled here and beaten to pulp by their pimps if they dont follow orders. It is still a human tragedy. If anything, things got worse.

The prostitution question is an interesting one. Perhaps the problem is a lack of brothels? i.e. protection for the ladies.

Lack of brothels, here? AHAHAHAHAAHA, you are so funny!

And there is something else - some women from abusive homes want to be abused and controlled. All such relationships are to a greater or lesser extent voluntary.

Yeah sure, they are all asking for it! They are asking for having their faces cut into shreds or beaten to pulp when they dont do what their pimps want. Then they get thrown out because they are no use anymore, other than an example for the other prostitutes of what is going to happen to them if they dont comply.

First, sex, unlike drugs, is a primal drive that exists without having to be "addicted" to it.

Seeing how in my town pretty much everything seems to revolve around either gambling, or sex, I cant agree. I think that sex can become an addiction.

For some, unfortunately, if all other routes are blocked, resort to rape.

WRONG! This is a stupid and proven wrong argument. Rape is about violence, not about sex. Rapists are violent criminals, not people that have unfullfilled sexual desires.
This is commonly known and you should read up on this.
Also, Austria does not have any less cases of rape than the US does.

However, wrt scum-bag pimps, etc; I have a question for you. What percentage of the prostitutes in your country are addicted to drugs? In the US, I believe you will find that most are, except those in places where it is legal. Legalize drugs and that control mechanism goes away.

Some are, but many are not by choice either.
Here it is mostly women from poorer, often former eastern block countries. They are abducted, or taken to Austria under wrong pretences (promised a well paid job in tourism). They are brought here like animals and then sold on the black market. Then they are forced into prostitution. With their passports stolen and lack of language knowledge they have no chance. If they dont comply, they get BRUTALLY mamed as an example for the others. They are poor, broken people. In addition to this, they are often drugged, or fall into drugs out of depression over this situation. Of course the triangle always goes together: Prostitution, drugs and organized crime.
The government does not want this to be true. It is against their leftist ideals. So they look away. As I mentioned successfull pimps make it into the upper ranges of society. People like Schimanko, a scum and barfbag of the most disgusting kind just bribed his way through all charges and into high society. The media presented him as a nobel night club owner. The truth is that he was nothing but a dirty scumbag pimp.

Anyway, to me this is proof that legalization does not automatically do away with crime. Whenever there is a high profit thing capitalizing on other people, the mafia will be after it. Dont tell me that cigarettes are not run by the mafia. Phillip Morris is IMHO a criminal organization.

[MSimon]

Oh yes, let's base our reasoning on a bit of doggerel penned by someone with an opinion that is more than likely biased.

I suppose experience is no guide. Fair enough. Then please do not complain about Progressives. Because they have a point. This time it might work. You can't use history as a guide for anything. This time things will be different.

And there is nothing incongruous about Conservatives continuing with Progressive policies and methods. Because they are so different. You see Conservatives favor liberty - economic liberty - and Progressives do not. Them icky Progressives seem to be on the side of individual liberty more or less - Conservatives not so much. Because people not constantly watched have been known to do bad things.

Each side is more than happy to beat the miscreants (as they see them) with the biggest government stick they can raise. The operative thinking being: if you don't beat or at least threaten people they will not follow the rules.

[MSimon]

Anyway, to me this is proof that legalization does not automatically do away with crime.

Well of course not. If you make the subsidies high enough there will be smuggling. See taxes, cigarette, New York City.

http://www.securitymanagement.com/news/ ... -terrorism (What other substances fund terrorism? Bet you can't guess. But I will give you a hint: it is not wheat.)

Who promised legalization would bring utopia? When Mayor Daley (The Younger) said that 85% of the crime in his city was prohibition related that still means that if ending prohibition worked perfectly they would still have a crime rate of 15% the current one. I personally think it would be more in the 30% range.

Even if it only reduced crime by 10% - who in their right mind thinks it ought to be government policy to increase crime? That would be in the interest of the police and prison guard unions for sure.

In these times of tight budgets who should the police go after? Traffic law violators (revenue source) or drug law violators (where is the profit in that?).

If you consider that there are 20 million illegal drug users who use at least once a month then there are at least 670,000 drug crimes every day. Twenty million a month. Two hundred and forty million a year. Minimum. And the police are arresting than fewer than 900,000 a year of these criminals. Despite a minimum of 240 million crimes. That is one arrest for every 250 crimes. Even an ineffective police burglary unit has better stats than that. Why is that? Burglary crimes have a victim and get reported. Who reports drug crimes? Not those committing them for sure.

[KitemanSA]

[/quote]

Prostitution might be legal but it's morally marginalized. It's not at all a mainstream market. Sex is still taboo.

In the US it may be a taboo, here it is absolutely not. I mean like really, really the opposite. We have more nudity on free TV than you guys in a porn shop. Heck people are running arround naked in the public parks.
So no, that argument I wont let you get away with, sorry.

Nudity taboo is not the same as sex taboo. A place can be free of a nudity taboo while maintaining a strict sex taboo.
No, I am not making a comment about Austria, I don't know the conditions there.

First, sex, unlike drugs, is a primal drive that exists without having to be "addicted" to it.

Seeing how in my town pretty much everything seems to revolve around either gambling, or sex, I cant agree. I think that sex can become an addiction.

I didn't state, nor intend to imply, that it couldn't, merely that the urge precedes the exposure. In a sense, all males are BORN addicted to sex and can't become "unaddicted" without removal of important attachments. The fact that some can become MORE addicted is a variation, not a basic.

For some, unfortunately, if all other routes are blocked, resort to rape.

WRONG! This is a stupid and proven wrong argument. Rape is about violence, not about sex. Rapists are violent criminals, not people that have unfullfilled sexual desires.
This is commonly known and you should read up on this.
Also, Austria does not have any less cases of rape than the US does.

"For some, unfortunately..." For many it is violence, for some the "only way" in their minds.

However, wrt scum-bag pimps, etc; I have a question for you. What percentage of the prostitutes in your country are addicted to drugs? In the US, I believe you will find that most are, except those in places where it is legal. Legalize drugs and that control mechanism goes away.

Some are, but many are not by choice either.
Here it is mostly women from poorer, often former eastern block countries. They are abducted, or taken to Austria under wrong pretences (promised a well paid job in tourism).

So, as I said before, you have a slavery problem in your country, not a prostitution problem. Perhaps if you and others saw the reality rather than the hype, something would be done about it?

[Skipjack]

Nudity taboo is not the same as sex taboo. A place can be free of a nudity taboo while maintaining a strict sex taboo.

There is no sex- taboo in Austria either...
Argh, just stop splitting hairs please.

"For some, unfortunately..." For many it is violence, for some the "only way" in their minds.

For very, very, very few, maybe. The vast majority is violence and not sex that is the center of the rape.

So, as I said before, you have a slavery problem in your country, not a prostitution problem. Perhaps if you and others saw the reality rather than the hype, something would be done about it?

Dude, you dont get it, do you? With the prostitution comes the slavery, come the pimps, comes the organized crime, comes the violence, etc.
ANYWAY, legalizing prostitution did not do away with the crime surrounding it. If anything it gave the criminals more ways to cover their tracks and to hide in legality and plain sight. There is still the same amount if not more crime with it being legal here.
The same will happen with the drugs. Sure the selling of the drugs wont be illegal anymore by itself and that crime will "go away". But the criminals will find another way to be criminals, because that is what they do.
So they will maybe just resort to selling the drugs to little children, or they will spike drinks to get people addicted to improve their business. Or they will do other criminal things. Criminals are criminals, are criminals. They dont change and they wont become non criminals just because the legal situation has changed. No, they will move on to other endeavours that are illegal, because that is what they do.

[Skipjack]

Just like the pimps did not stop being criminals when they legalized prostitution. They just found other illegal ways to make their business even more profitable. Someone who does not care about breaking the law now, will not care about breaking the law when the legal situation changes. In case of the pimps they are now "importing" girls from the east and forcing them into prostitution. That allows them to make even more profit.
The drug dealers will just sell cheaper drugs made from low grade stuff, so the addicts can buy more. Just look at the huge market for counterfeit viagra. This is because the real viagra, while legal, is comparably expensive...

[WizWom]

Don't really want to join the argument, but I thought I'd correct a misperception.

For some, unfortunately, if all other routes are blocked, resort to rape.

WRONG! This is a stupid and proven wrong argument. Rape is about violence, not about sex. Rapists are violent criminals, not people that have unfullfilled sexual desires.
This is commonly known and you should read up on this.
Also, Austria does not have any less cases of rape than the US does.

Austria had 625 Rapes in 2002, with a population of 8.2 Million, or 7.6 per 100,000
U.S. had 95,136 Rapes in 2002, with a population of 303.8 Million, or 31.3 per 100,000

US Rape rate is about 4x Austria's, Skipjack

Austria has about the lowest violent crime rates in the industrialized world.

[Skipjack]

Austria has about the lowest violent crime rates in the industrialized world.

There are many other reasons for that though, one is demographics.
I dont want to get into that though, because it is incredibly slippy territorry.
In any case, it is common knowledge that rape is not about sex, but about violence and power. If you dont believe be, then go and F***ING READ IT UP!!!
You were obviously smart enough to google these pointless statistics, so now go and google the motivations behind rape! Once you have done that, we can go back to talking.