Latest drug addict loons.

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williatw
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by williatw »

GIThruster wrote: You keep pretending that the law is being enforced differently for different races while the evidence is quite the contrary, and this clearly demonstrates your inability to cope with the actual facts of the issue. You keep bringing up this phony argument despite it has been dealt with on multiple occasions. What you're saying is simply not true.
Where here are some more "phony", "fake" arguments for you:
As Cuomo explained, the state legislature decriminalized possession of up to 25 grams in 1977, making it a violation punishable by a $100 fine. But possessing marijuana "in public view" remained a misdemeanor, punishable by up to three months in jail. Police in New York City routinely convert the former offense into the latter, justifying arrests by instructing people they stop to reveal any contraband they may be carrying or by removing it themselves in the course of a pat-down. Although New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly concedes this practice is illegal, court records and reports from defense attorneys show that it continues, which is why Cuomo last year endorsed abolishing the distinction between mere possession and public display. Yesterday Cuomo reiterated his support for that reform, which was blocked last year due to opposition by Republican legislators.
In the first full year of enforcement of the separate "open view" marijuana law, there were 514 arrests for the crime. Today, police arrest 100 times more people for this offense, and these arrests comprise the single largest category of arrests in New York City, accounting for 15 percent of all NYC arrests and 20 percent of NYC misdemeanors
A table included in Cuomo's prepared remarks shows the number of such arrests has increased especially rapidly since the mid-1990s, rising from 4,310 statewide in 1994 to 53,124 last year. New York City accounted for 94 percent of those pot busts in 2011. More than four-fifths of the arrestees were black or Hispanic, even though survey data indicate that whites are at least as likely to smoke pot. Last year 72 percent of the people arrested on this charge had no prior criminal record. And even though only about 10 percent of these cases end with a conviction, Cuomo noted, that doesn't mean they are no big deal:


Arrest has consequences that persist after release. There is the humiliation of arrest and, in some cases, detention during processing. More enduring is the stigma of the criminal records that can have lasting and deleterious effects on the young person’s future. A "drug" arrest can have a significant impact on a person’s life and key decisions made by employers, landlords, licensing boards and banks
http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/10/cuomo ... or-curtail


When you have a law the responsibility is morally upon the enforcers to see whether it is being fairly enforced. If every study, survey says that whites smoke pot in the same or greater amounts than minority youth but the later are overwhelmingly more likely than the former to be arrested, tried, and when found guilty more likely to be incarcerated than the execution of your law is biased in practice whether intended to be so or not.

williatw
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by williatw »

GIThruster wrote:
. . .it sure as hell didn't prevent any of that.
Cheesy rhetoric. Obviously you cannot look at the situation we have and see what WOD has prevented. You have to look at societies where drugs were permitted to see what WOD has prevented and we've done quite enough of that. You simply prefer to ignore the facts.
You mean like present day Portugal and say America prior to about 1937 when pot was legal many places? And what would looking at either one tell me about the efficacy or necessity of your 40 + years asymmetrical experiment in drug prohibition? The people who want to mass jail need to demonstrate the factual justification not the other way around.

GIThruster
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by GIThruster »

williatw wrote:When you have a law the responsibility is morally upon the enforcers to see whether it is being fairly enforced.
You seem to be having a strained time showing how illegal police activity is somehow the result of WOD. It is illegal activity. It's got nothing to do with WOD.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

MSimon
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by MSimon »

GIThruster wrote:
williatw wrote:When you have a law the responsibility is morally upon the enforcers to see whether it is being fairly enforced.
You seem to be having a strained time showing how illegal police activity is somehow the result of WOD. It is illegal activity. It's got nothing to do with WOD.
Just as illegal police activity had nothing to do with that other Prohibition. It just mysteriously rose during that Prohibition and just as mysteriously declined after it was over. Enforcing a Prohibition law had nothing to do with it.

And what was wrong with those Americans that they wouldn't obey the laws? Obviously they were too much under the influence of anarchists like this one:

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."-- Thomas Jefferson

Here he is at it again:

The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society. — Thomas Jefferson

And again:

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now. — Thomas Jefferson

How did a man with such crazy ideas ever get to be President?

Your trouble GIT is that moral socialism no longer has the attractions it once did. Next up is the economic socialists.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by MSimon »

GIT,

The racist enforcement was intentional.

"Look, we understood we couldn't make it illegal to be young or poor or black in the United States, but we could criminalize their common pleasure. We understood that drugs were not the health problem we were making them out to be, but it was such a perfect issue...that we couldn't resist it." - John Ehrlichman, White House counsel to President Nixon on the rationale of the War on Drugs.

"[Nixon] emphasized that you have to face the fact that the whole problem is really the blacks" Haldeman, his Chief of Staff wrote, "The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to."

Modern Prohibition/War on Drugs is the most destructive, dysfunctional and immoral policy since slavery & Jim Crow - Retired Police Detective Howard Wooldridge - http://www.citizensopposingprohibition.org/

===

Did you get it GIT - "The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to." - well it worked. They certainly fooled you.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

GIThruster
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by GIThruster »

I would consider responding to the above quotes if I had a reason to suppose they were really quotes. At present I can see no such reason. And this is the trouble, simon; with you posting stuff daily everyone knows is not true. When you actually post something of some consequence, we are all in the position of the folks around the boy who cried wolf. Were you to post with some integrity and honor, I would not need as now, to ignore your post.

Where did you get the quotes? What reasons do we have to suspect, that the architects of WoD actually had this agenda you propose, and in what sense could that possibly relate to how the WoD is prosecuted today?

The drugs do appear to cause all these behaviors I just previously mentioned. Cannabis use appears is responsible for the majority of crime, the vast majority of violent crime, almost all murders and in particular mass murders, for the overwhelming majority of psychosis in society, homelessness, poverty, self-esteem failures, underachievement, loss of ambition, laziness and malaise, memory problems, discipline problems, poor performance in general, etc. Unless you can clearly show this is not true, it seems self evident to me we need a WoD, and after having been in the drug culture for years, and had associations with it for years after, I can say every bit of my experience is that Cannabis does these things to people. And additionally, it may even be the cause of autism.

When I was working for years with homeless people on the streets of Portland, what I found was that only the drug dealers, and all of them; carried guns. The drug dealers are the only folks who shoot each other, and at that time, Portland had topped the violent crime per capita in the country, because of the disputes between the Crips and Bloods over their drug territories. Now you can claim that this violence comes from prohibition, but all the evidence is, it comes from the drugs themselves. When for example, you have a guy roughing up a cop, and then charging him while the cop's gun is trained on him and he's been ordered to stop, you can't blame prohibition that the guy gets himself shot. It's the direct effects of the DRUGS THEMSELVES that is the trouble. And we see this same destructive action in your life, so how are you going to argue it ain't so?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

williatw
Posts: 1912
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by williatw »

GIThruster wrote:The drugs do appear to cause all these behaviors I just previously mentioned. Cannabis use appears is responsible for the majority of crime, the vast majority of violent crime, almost all murders and in particular mass murders, for the overwhelming majority of psychosis in society, homelessness, poverty, self-esteem failures, underachievement, loss of ambition, laziness and malaise, memory problems, discipline problems, poor performance in general, etc. Unless you can clearly show this is not true, it seems self evident to me we need a WoD, and after having been in the drug culture for years, and had associations with it for years after, I can say every bit of my experience is that Cannabis does these things to people. And additionally, it may even be the cause of autism.
And I know just what to do to help those poor unfortunates. Have the police arrest them; especially the minority male ones; (after relieving them of whatever valuables they have); have them "voluntarily" empty their pockets if there are no visible drugs, then the obligatory police beating/choke hold if they have the temerity to show the slightest resistance to being man-handled; or maybe even if they don't. Incompetent representation in court resulting in an obligatory conviction and jail (especially for the minority males) and then off to jail. Once they're incarcerated more beatings (& ass raping’s), with plenty of drugs available if they can pay for them. After they get out more damaged than when they went in you can count on them to get back on drugs; assuming they ever got off while in jail; wash, rinse repeat.
Last edited by williatw on Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

GIThruster
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by GIThruster »

I'm sure you feel your response was very clever, william; but lets just note you can make that argument against ever arresting anyone for anything. And this is the trouble with your position--it always reduces to absurd. All the pro-drug/anti-prohibitionist arguments reduce to absurd. This is why Libertarianism can't work--their arguments are absurd.

This argument above about freedom. . .hey, I'm all for freedom! but I also recognize that liberty has to have limitations somewhere. Responsible government is always involved in finding where those limitations ought to be. Now take the pro-liberty argument simon made was it yesterday? I didn't even respond because it is so obviously and stupidly wrong. Were it right we would not have outlawed Heroin and Morphine. Are you familiar with the claims people used to make about Heroin and Morphine? "Heroin clears the complexion, gives buoyancy to the mind, Regulates the stomach and bowels, and is, in fact, a perfect guardian of health!" Have you ever met a Heroin addict? Did he or she appear to you to be a perfect model of health? Of course not! Anyone with eyes can see what Heroin does to people, so we outlawed it. The difference is, you don't much care when your neighbor's life is flushed down the toilet because under the influence of Cannabis, he decided to become a janitor instead of an engineer, and I do care. History has clearly shown, many drugs should not be available to the general populous. Period.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

MSimon
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by MSimon »

Well if cannabis use causes the bad behavior you think it does how come it was only noticed after Alcohol Prohibition ended? Why was cannabis in the Pharmacopeia until it was Federally outlawed in 1937?

The evidence does not match your "Refer Madness" imagination.

In fact there have been studies done. And the only drug that matches your imagination is alcohol.

But no matter. The evidence will have no effect on you. It is in fact not for you. It is for those whose brains have not been hardened by the decline of endocannabinoid production at around age 30. The people who still have the ability to be influenced by evidence.

That is in fact why Prohibitions with a major effect on society typically last 50 years. It takes that long for the misinformed to die off. For alcohol the use was so widespread that it only took 13 years. With cannabis with use rates among the general population of around 10% the situation has followed the more usual path.

But there is an advantage that Prohibition gives the anti-Prohibitionists. Cannabis use becomes a rite of passage. Far more are exposed to it than otherwise. Prohibition is in fact a vector for its own self destruction. Amusing no? Well it amuses me.

So lets see. 1970 + 50 = 2020. Time is about up.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

williatw
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by williatw »

GIThruster wrote:The difference is, you don't much care when your neighbor's life is flushed down the toilet because under the influence of Cannabis, he decided to become a janitor instead of an engineer, and I do care. History has clearly shown, many drugs should not be available to the general populous. Period.
But you do care...and if a few asses have to be raped, or heads beaten, or "suspicious" assets confiscated, or minority males selectively mass incarcerated, or Constitutional rights ignored, that is a price you are more than willing to pay for the greater good of the most people. Especially if it is people other than you being jailed/confiscated/etc. If you had been arrested/tried/convicted/jailed for your self admitted youthful drug use, there would have likely been no college, no degree, no engineering/aerospace career for you; not even a right to vote to protest what was done to you; just a probable succession of dead end low paying jobs.
“Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.”


http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/38415-p ... st-fascist

GIThruster
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by GIThruster »

williatw wrote:But you do care...and if a few asses have to be raped, or heads beaten, or "suspicious" assets confiscated, or minority males selectively mass incarcerated, or Constitutional rights ignored, that is a price you are more than willing to pay for the greater good of the most people.

No, William, but of course your argument is really for better conditions in prison, not for refusing to incarcerate criminals.

How is it you can't tell the difference between the rational and merely rhetorical use of such an argument? You sound like a small child.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

williatw
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by williatw »

GIThruster wrote:How is it you can't tell the difference between the rational and merely rhetorical use of such an argument? You sound like a small child.

Too bad the young you didn't get stopped & frisked during your youthful drug escapades....might have give you a different perspective on "rhetorical" vs "rational".

MSimon
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Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by MSimon »

Well sure. Freedom has to be limited so people can be free. So why not start with outlawing plants? That could work.

Well maybe not so good. OK. Maybe something else then. How about guns? Those actually kill people. And some of the people killed didn't get into the situation volitionally. Like the consumers of a plant. So maybe we could stop at least a few of those deaths by outlawing guns. After all guns don't grow. They are manufactured. And we could outlaw swords. And knives with sharp points. And razor blades. And take out food sodas larger than 16oz. And fast food. Heck there are all kinds of limits that need to be put on freedom so we can actually be free.

I'm looking forward to government control of the 'net so that ideas that make us unfree can be suppressed. Once people can no longer express ideas that go against government policy we will once and for all and always ever after be free. Because people know that every government policy is benevolent and for your own good.

Well OK. Maybe that is too harsh. I think the very first addiction that needs attending to is food addiction. You eliminate that and all the rest of the problems fall in line.

But hell. If I was going to diagnose you GIT I'd say you were suffering from:

Clinical endocannabinoid deficiency (CECD)

Here is a NIH link all about it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24977967
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by GIThruster »

williatw wrote:Too bad the young you didn't get stopped & frisked during your youthful drug escapades....might have give you a different perspective on "rhetorical" vs "rational".
I doubt it. I didn't have any critical thinking courses until after my dalliance with drugs. It is the 100 level, critical thinking classes anyone can find in community college or high school that make clear the simple distinctions between real reasoning and the awful deceitful rhetoric philosophers are so urgently warned against. Whenever you make an argument that only pretends to come to the issue, you are involved in a logical fallacy of distraction, and that's something we philosophers take a very jaded view toward.

Interesting that this kind of response is the commonest response politicians make when asked a question they don't want to answer. You'd likely make a decent politician, were that not an oxymoron.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Re: Latest drug addict loons.

Post by GIThruster »

MSimon wrote:Well sure. Freedom has to be limited so people can be free. So why not start with outlawing plants? That could work.
Well in fact it does work quite well. You keep pretending it doesn't, but when you look at the kinds of problems people face in those parts of the world were drugs go completely sans prohibition, like in China a century ago, you can see that in fact prohibition does work.

Lets turn it around. How does this guy's supposed "right" to use PCP, justify how he acts while he's using it?

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/02/241579- ... aign=Crime
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

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