Osoma Bin Laden is dead

[seedload]

This is uncalled for.

It was totally called for. This guy is just throwing things at me that are totally uncalled for, offending and not true.
Period!

As with all things forum, threads and comments come together.

You, singular, dexlared that you were tired of Jews crying Hitler.

You, singular, declared that you were prepared to take off the PC gloves.

Now you declare offence and surprise when someone responds by taking off the pc gloves himself.

You have continually pointed out your outrage at my country and our actions in the wake of 911. This offends ME for the reasons that I expained. My countries predicament is a pretty direct result of the german nations profoundly disgusting genocide. I also question the moral highgound you claim, impied then verified, given the convenience of neutrality.

Since this started with an analogy.

A company buries toxic waste in the ground. Years later it leaks into a creek and flows down to my hometown. A company representative stands on the side of the creek watching the cleanup, arms crossed, claiming no responsiblity because those were the old owners. Oh, and by the way, he says, why are you using buckets rather than sponges - that's outragous.

Your anti-american attitude given the correlation I have drawn is the reason for my offense. And please refrain from continuing to attack my friends, girlfriends, kids, etc in your response. As mentioned, I lost someone in 911. I want to save you from accidentally hitting on that someone.

Regards

[chrismb]

'Fraid to say the first blood was taken by you, SL, with "We are the targets because of YOU.".

SJ then reacted, albeit with too light a touch on restraining his emotional response.

Done.....

[93143]

I wonder if the Muslim religion has the same concept of self righteousness as Christianity and Judaism, it might explain a lot.

...what?

[Skipjack]

You have continually pointed out your outrage at my country and our actions in the wake of 911.

What outrage?
I have only said that the Guatanamo and torture are a slippery slope and that there is a big danger of having innocent people get into the wheels.
I brought a historic example of how torture got people to confess to the most insane things (like witchcraft).
I think that my line of argumentation was very easy to follow and very logical.
But to bring another example. With the current situation, a real terrorist could plant false evidence against you and make a fals witness statement. You appear in nuclear related forums and someone puts everything together wrong and you end up in Guatanamo with no way of defending yourself, getting tortured until you confess something that you have never done. I dont think that this is a prospect that anybody would like, yet it is very possible.
Like it or not, it is a problem. It is also against human rights, which should apply to all people, not just those that are convenient.
Yes my country has made horrible mistakes and I am not proud of that. But, at least we learned from our mistakes and we are not making them anymore. How about you? Do you have to make your own mistakes first, or are you able to learn from other peoples mistakes?
Anyway, I personally think that it is more important to protect the innocent against the power of the government than it is to catch a few terrorists. Some people here are actually more affraid of the US and the hole security nonsense since 9/11 than they are of the actual terrorists. I am not saying that they are right with that, but it should be taken as an indication that certain things that the US has been doing, are actually counter productive.

Your anti-american attitude given the correlation I have drawn is the reason for my offense.

LOL, for an anti american, I am pretty close to the US. After all I married an american citizen (not that it really matters, but she even is half jewish, but I mentioned that before). In fact, I do actually love the US and I keep defending the US and its citizens against many people in my environment.
You just keep missunderstanding me, that is all.
If I point out an issue, it does not mean that I hate anybody, or that I am anti american. Besides, I am sure that most americans think at least to some extent like I do. My wife certainly does.

Before I forget it, my son will be a US citizen as well. He will have the choice at the age of 18 (until then dual citizenship) and I will highly recommend to him to take the US citizenship by then.
We Austrians literally take everybody anyway (in case he ever wants to come back).

[choff]

I wonder if the Muslim religion has the same concept of self righteousness as Christianity and Judaism, it might explain a lot.

...what?

Well, I've been reading about the subject of dhimmitude, and how the Coptic Christians are treated by Muslims in Egypt. But basically, in Christianity and Judaism there is the concept of self-righteousness, that no human being can claim to be morally superior to all others. We can't say, our faith is right and yours is wrong, so we have the right to kill you if you don't convert to our faith.

[Giorgio]

Muslim is not a single religion. There is a common base, but than for the everyday life you have collections of opinions that change from country to country and from mosque to mosque. I knew many muslims that used to change Mosque until they found one that was fitting at the best their actual needs or beliefs.
Some countries (especially western ones) try to have a more standardized way of teaching it, especially by trying to keep out all the ambiguous issues. Unfortunately, as there is no real authority in Islam (actually there is but it has zero powers), each one is free to do as he likes and teach what he likes.
Not much different from Christianity, Coptic and Judaism, IMHO, except that they do have an authority that tries to keep the bad parts of the respective books out of the teachings.

Humanity could be in a much better shape if we just took the courage to really move religion out of politic and government.

[seedload]

'Fraid to say the first blood was taken by you, SL, with "We are the targets because of YOU.".

"YOU" was obviously plural in context. Sorry, I was too busy supporting my countries reinstitution of the Inquisition and Witch Hunting to realize that I was drawing first blood.

[seedload]

You have continually pointed out your outrage at my country and our actions in the wake of 911.

What outrage?
I have only said that the Guatanamo and torture are a slippery slope and that there is a big danger of having innocent people get into the wheels.
I brought a historic example of how torture got people to confess to the most insane things (like witchcraft).
I think that my line of argumentation was very easy to follow and very logical.
But to bring another example. With the current situation, a real terrorist could plant false evidence against you and make a fals witness statement. You appear in nuclear related forums and someone puts everything together wrong and you end up in Guatanamo with no way of defending yourself, getting tortured until you confess something that you have never done. I dont think that this is a prospect that anybody would like, yet it is very possible.
Like it or not, it is a problem. It is also against human rights, which should apply to all people, not just those that are convenient.
Yes my country has made horrible mistakes and I am not proud of that. But, at least we learned from our mistakes and we are not making them anymore. How about you? Do you have to make your own mistakes first, or are you able to learn from other peoples mistakes?
Anyway, I personally think that it is more important to protect the innocent against the power of the government than it is to catch a few terrorists. Some people here are actually more affraid of the US and the hole security nonsense since 9/11 than they are of the actual terrorists. I am not saying that they are right with that, but it should be taken as an indication that certain things that the US has been doing, are actually counter productive.

Your anti-american attitude given the correlation I have drawn is the reason for my offense.

You just keep missunderstanding me, that is all.

You are wrong, I understand completely.

1) You think I don't understand that torture can create false testimony and are trying to instruct me on that fact.

2) You are doing so by likening Guantanamo to The Inquisition and to The Witch Hunts - the real stuff not just the colloquialism.

3) You think I support torture and are therefore telling me that it is a human rights violation because you don't think I understand or that I am unwilling to admit it.

4) You are saying that your country made "mistakes".

5) You are saying that your country does not make mistakes anymore.

6) You are saying that the United States makes mistakes.

Here are my responses:

1) I know that torture can create false testimony. News flash. Torturers know that too.
2) Likening Guantanamo to the Inquisition is an intentionally insightful overstatement, "IMHO". You seem unaware of matters of scale. They are in no way alike in matters of scale, intention, or means. Nor do I believe they are alike in the sense that the US blindly prosecutes all people implicated by my means of torture. Maybe we are smarter than you give us credit for.
3) I do not support torture. I feel that water boarding and other techniques used at Guantanamo against a few prisoners were wrong. I have argued as much before on this forum. That said, I am also not a big fan of overstatement.
4) I would not classify Genocide as a mistake.
5) Being neutral is often the biggest mistake.
6) Tough to not make mistakes when you are not neutral. There are plenty of reasons to not be neutral that trace back to, oh snap, you again. There are also plenty of reasons that our lack of neutrality has benefited you directly.

If you equate my Countries actions to The Inquisition don't be surprised if I point out The Holocaust especially when there is such a direct connection to why the heck we are targets of terrorism in the first place.

[93143]

I wonder if the Muslim religion has the same concept of self righteousness as Christianity and Judaism, it might explain a lot.

...what?

Well, I've been reading about the subject of dhimmitude, and how the Coptic Christians are treated by Muslims in Egypt. But basically, in Christianity and Judaism there is the concept of self-righteousness, that no human being can claim to be morally superior to all others. We can't say, our faith is right and yours is wrong, so we have the right to kill you if you don't convert to our faith.

Okay, that makes sense. Your terminology isn't quite what I'm used to, is all...

[Skipjack]

1) I know that torture can create false testimony. News flash. Torturers know that too.

And that changes this how? And that makes torture more useful exactly how?
You think that todays torturers are somehow better than the ones in the middle ages? I think the ones back then had more practice

2) Likening Guantanamo to the Inquisition is an intentionally insightful overstatement, "IMHO". You seem unaware of matters of scale. They are in no way alike in matters of scale, intention, or means. Nor do I believe they are alike in the sense that the US blindly prosecutes all people implicated by my means of torture. Maybe we are smarter than you give us credit for.

Ok, so Guatanamo is better, because you are torturing just a few people, not many people. I see.
I am sure that for the individuals that are falsly accused and tortured this is very comforting to know that they are an exception to the rule.

I do not support torture. I feel that water boarding and other techniques used at Guantanamo against a few prisoners were wrong.

The why the frack are you arguing with me? Is it just some personal dislike you have for me that makes you explode every time I make a comment, or something? Again, what did I do, frack your girlfriend or something?

4) I would not classify Genocide as a mistake.

I said "terrible mistake". I dont know what better word there is for it.

5) Being neutral is often the biggest mistake.

Ah, ok. So you could not find anything else to pin on us anymore. Now you have to complain about our neutrality (something that was imposed on us by the winning parties as a condition for the peace treaty after WW2). So you think the Swiss are also guilty because of that? They did great business witht he Nazis in WW2. Maybe you want to blame them for Osama as well?

6) Tough to not make mistakes when you are not neutral. There are plenty of reasons to not be neutral that trace back to, oh snap, you again. There are also plenty of reasons that our lack of neutrality has benefited you directly.

Oh yeah?
Let me turn this arround, shall I? Had you not supported the British in WW1, then we might have had a chance of a more equal peace treaty to end WW1.
With that Germany and Austria would have not been at their knees. People here would not have been starving and not have been desperate. Hitler would have had no basis of support in the German and Austrian population. People would have laughed at him and he would have died a crappy painter that he was.
So if you had actually stayed neutral there, things would have ended much better for everybody.
Just because you keep digging in the past, I can do so as well, I think.

If you equate my Countries actions to The Inquisition don't be surprised if I point out The Holocaust especially when there is such a direct connection to why the heck we are targets of terrorism in the first place.

This is of course a very, very vague connection after 65 years.
I am not saying that supporting Israel is wrong, I actually support them too, but pinning this on us, is slightly odd, especially since we are supporting them as well, have been since WW2 (financially mostly).

[seedload]

1) I know that torture can create false testimony. News flash. Torturers know that too.

And that changes this how? And that makes torture more useful exactly how?
You think that todays torturers are somehow better than the ones in the middle ages? I think the ones back then had more practice

2) Likening Guantanamo to the Inquisition is an intentionally insightful overstatement, "IMHO". You seem unaware of matters of scale. They are in no way alike in matters of scale, intention, or means. Nor do I believe they are alike in the sense that the US blindly prosecutes all people implicated by my means of torture. Maybe we are smarter than you give us credit for.

Ok, so Guatanamo is better, because you are torturing just a few people, not many people. I see.
I am sure that for the individuals that are falsly accused and tortured this is very comforting to know that they are an exception to the rule.

I do not support torture. I feel that water boarding and other techniques used at Guantanamo against a few prisoners were wrong.

The why the frack are you arguing with me? Is it just some personal dislike you have for me that makes you explode every time I make a comment, or something? Again, what did I do, frack your girlfriend or something?

4) I would not classify Genocide as a mistake.

I said "terrible mistake". I dont know what better word there is for it.

5) Being neutral is often the biggest mistake.

Ah, ok. So you could not find anything else to pin on us anymore. Now you have to complain about our neutrality (something that was imposed on us by the winning parties as a condition for the peace treaty after WW2). So you think the Swiss are also guilty because of that? They did great business witht he Nazis in WW2. Maybe you want to blame them for Osama as well?

6) Tough to not make mistakes when you are not neutral. There are plenty of reasons to not be neutral that trace back to, oh snap, you again. There are also plenty of reasons that our lack of neutrality has benefited you directly.

Oh yeah?
Let me turn this arround, shall I? Had you not supported the British in WW1, then we might have had a chance of a more equal peace treaty to end WW1.
With that Germany and Austria would have not been at their knees. People here would not have been starving and not have been desperate. Hitler would have had no basis of support in the German and Austrian population. People would have laughed at him and he would have died a crappy painter that he was.
So if you had actually stayed neutral there, things would have ended much better for everybody.
Just because you keep digging in the past, I can do so as well, I think.

If you equate my Countries actions to The Inquisition don't be surprised if I point out The Holocaust especially when there is such a direct connection to why the heck we are targets of terrorism in the first place.

This is of course a very, very vague connection after 65 years.
I am not saying that supporting Israel is wrong, I actually support them too, but pinning this on us, is slightly odd, especially since we are supporting them as well, have been since WW2 (financially mostly).

I had a long reply addressing all of these points, but I deleted it because this conversation is pointless.

My opinion is that you are clearly exaggerating Guantanamo which I feel is odd given the historical context.

[Diogenes]

Just peeked in here. How did this discussion get so far off track?

[Skipjack]

My opinion is that you are clearly exaggerating Guantanamo which I feel is odd given the historical context.

Ok, maybe I am exaggerating. I wont deny that. If I do though, then it is merely to bring a point across and make my position more clear, not in order to condemn somebody or to make somebody look worse than they are.
In fact, I am really, really trying to see the grey area in things, because I know that things in life are not black and white and even those things that seem very black have shades of grey in them (also given my countries background).
But, I do also- and that has nothing to do with my countries historic background, I also value personal freedom and the protection of the innocent higher than the need to capture some criminals, no matter how bad they may be. This is why I am calling for being somewhat more moderate in the choice of methods for handling certain things.
That is all. I dont know why and how this offends you that much all the time. I really dont. My wife is a US citizen and she shares my opinion, actually. In fact, she is the one that pointed the issues out to me better than I had understood them originally.
I hope I can make my point somewhat understandable.

[seedload]

Just peeked in here. How did this discussion get so far off track?

Nude pictures ?!?!

[Diogenes]

Something I ran across that I think others might have an interest in.


http://www.libertasfilmmagazine.com/exp ... -festival/