Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

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Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

choff wrote:What if 90% of the 2 million people in the breakaway provinces who voted to succeed consider themselves ringleaders to their own rebellion?
Most of us vote to succeed. Sometimes whole regions vote to secede. Sometimes they do not succeed when they secede.

Probably why there was a blanket amnesty after the War Between the States. Remember, I was born and raised in the Capital of the Confederacy, suh, and my childhood home was a block from Richmond's statue of Lee. So I'm willing to question if it was legal to stop the southern states from withdrawing from the Union. And if certain provinces in the Ukraine felt that desire, who am I to say they were wrong to think that way?

From my perspective in history, the Civil War was about the most stupid thing this nation ever did. We can argue about who started it, and what it was fought over, but the fact that it was fought at all is tragic beyond the ability of most people these days to comprehend. A lot of things should never have happened, starting with the establishment of slavery in the first place, creating a Constitution that legalized it, failing to expolit our phenomenal inventiveness to find mechanical solutions starting circa 1805, passing the Missouri Compromise to kick the can down the road rather than changing course, firing on Fort Sumter, both sides going to war without realizing the consequences ....

Many causes have been proposed for the Civil War. I now boil them down to one: polarization. Failure to be able to conduct reasonable political debate, failure of vision, failure to anticipate consequences, pig-headed adherence to your side's views and absolute rage at the other side's views, with no appreciation at all for what is just and good.

Wanting to secede is very different from killing your neighbors.

We are not alone in history. I am hoping we don't repeat it. You seem eager to.

choff
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by choff »

I'm eager to repeat history? Our great leaders decided to get involved in the Ukraine. An equivalent would be Russia using NGO's to make Texas succeed, then having the ringleaders promise Russian missile bases in Austin as reward for their assistance. Exactly how do you think Washington would react?
CHoff

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by ladajo »

choff wrote:Over 90% of the people in those ukraine breakaway provinces voted for secession...
Are you really sure about that?

I think it suspect at best. I happen to have friends that lived in those areas. Key word, "lived". They were forced to move. Those who stayed, were forced to 'support' the new 'regime'. Their words, not mine. So how many of those 90% were real people? And, how many were not coerced? I mean, that sort of thing never happens in those regions historically, right???
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
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choff
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by choff »

A lot of them "moved" to escape the fighting. As for the legitimacy of the vote, in California, some counties have 144% registered voters to 100% of the adult population. Overall, 3.5 million more U.S. voters than adults, 23 states refusing to share voter lists with the federal government. The pot calling the kettle black.
CHoff

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

choff wrote:I'm eager to repeat history? Our great leaders decided to get involved in the Ukraine. An equivalent would be Russia using NGO's to make Texas succeed, then having the ringleaders promise Russian missile bases in Austin as reward for their assistance. Exactly how do you think Washington would react?
Texas has succeeded just fine without Russia's interference.

Texas (by which we mean US ex-pat white settlers) seceded from Mexico with the help of Tennessee volunteers, so this is kinda ticklish ground, historically.

I certainly hope we can get thru then next election without any more shenanigans from Moscow.

Meanwhile, what happened in the Ukraine was definitely the result of Russian invasion. You will probably argue that political change in the Ukraine came first, but I'll point back to Catherine the Great. There have been several.

Really, Choff, you're pretty slippery on this. I have to suspect you're a Russian agent from your normal rants, and that this last post is just misdirection.

You're making like Nazis are different from Stalinist Communists. The way Stalin ran things, the country was not communist but national socialist, i.e. NAZI. Two sides of the same lead coin. The guiding principle is that the individual is the servant of the State.

TDPerk
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by TDPerk »

choff wrote:"And in the happy event Ukraine can preserve it's sovereignty, why shouldn't there be mass deportations and even executions? Russians out of uniform in Ukraine should expect to be killed out of hand as the Geneva Conventions permit. Ukrainian citizens who fought for the invaders should also expect that, although at least a military trial and conviction should precede it."

There are two breakaway provinces full of people who believe it, why else go to all the trouble of leaving.

Who do you think will be called upon for the mass executions, the girl guides?
Believe what? What text you quoted is not any antecedent for any part of your reply.

And other than the legally competent Ukrainian authorities--and compared to the Putinistas, the morally competent ones--who do you think would be carrying out any trials and subsequent executions?
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

TDPerk
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by TDPerk »

choff wrote:I'm eager to repeat history? Our great leaders decided to get involved in the Ukraine. An equivalent would be Russia using NGO's to make Texas succeed, then having the ringleaders promise Russian missile bases in Austin as reward for their assistance. Exactly how do you think Washington would react?
But NGOs had nothing to do with Ukraine deciding to be remain independent. It was the 10s of thousands of Ukrainians going to the barricades to drive out Putin's agent.
molon labe
montani semper liberi
para fides paternae patria

choff
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by choff »

Tom Ligon wrote:
choff wrote:I'm eager to repeat history? Our great leaders decided to get involved in the Ukraine. An equivalent would be Russia using NGO's to make Texas succeed, then having the ringleaders promise Russian missile bases in Austin as reward for their assistance. Exactly how do you think Washington would react?
Texas has succeeded just fine without Russia's interference.

Texas (by which we mean US ex-pat white settlers) seceded from Mexico with the help of Tennessee volunteers, so this is kinda ticklish ground, historically.

I certainly hope we can get thru then next election without any more shenanigans from Moscow.

Meanwhile, what happened in the Ukraine was definitely the result of Russian invasion. You will probably argue that political change in the Ukraine came first, but I'll point back to Catherine the Great. There have been several.

Really, Choff, you're pretty slippery on this. I have to suspect you're a Russian agent from your normal rants, and that this last post is just misdirection.

You're making like Nazis are different from Stalinist Communists. The way Stalin ran things, the country was not communist but national socialist, i.e. NAZI. Two sides of the same lead coin. The guiding principle is that the individual is the servant of the State.
Cold war's supposed to have ended in the 90's, Soviet Union is history, the place is becoming more democratic. Unfortunately, the military industrial complex can't survive without the threat. As for the Russian interference in the election, they couldn't hold a candle to the Democrats.
CHoff

Diogenes
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Diogenes »

Tom Ligon wrote: Texas has succeeded just fine without Russia's interference.

Texas (by which we mean US ex-pat white settlers) seceded from Mexico with the help of Tennessee volunteers, so this is kinda ticklish ground, historically.

And for what it's worth, this is what Abraham Lincoln had to say about the matter.

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable,-- most sacred right--a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the teritory as they inhabit.



Tom Ligon wrote: I certainly hope we can get thru then next election without any more shenanigans from Moscow.


What shenanigans did Moscow pull in the election?


(23 megabits/second)
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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choff
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by choff »

We know what shenanigans the Democrats engaged in.

http://www.npr.org/2016/10/19/498587397 ... oter-fraud
CHoff

choff
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by choff »

The Azov Battalion.

https://medium.com/@mattflorence/how-pr ... 4b9fb5b3d9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf0vbGj9cO4

The Donbass people would be fools to lay down their arms and let those guys march in unimpeded.
Last edited by choff on Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CHoff

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

Confirmed case of voter fraud. http://nhpr.org/post/manchester-man-ple ... e#stream/0

The guy is a Republican.

paperburn1
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by paperburn1 »

choff wrote:Over 90% of the people in those ukraine breakaway provinces voted for secession, exactly how many do you propose be executed/deported?
I beg to differ on your numbers
63.8% of Crimeans (76% of Russians, 55% of Ukrainians, and 14% of Crimean Tatars, respectively) would like Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia and 53.8% would like to preserve its current status, but with expanded powers and rights.

But you guys realise this was all about a pipeline and saudi gas to eastern europe right?
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

choff
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by choff »

I was describing the two provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk.
CHoff

hanelyp
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by hanelyp »

choff wrote:... As for the legitimacy of the vote, in California, some counties have 144% registered voters to 100% of the adult population. Overall, 3.5 million more U.S. voters than adults, 23 states refusing to share voter lists with the federal government. The pot calling the kettle black.
I've given a lot of thought on how to hold an honest election. What I've come down to is:
- Regularly clean the election rolls of people who die or move away. This includes cross referencing with other State's election rolls.
- Positive voter ID. A government issued voter ID at the polling place, or a fingerprint for absentee ballots. This should help a great deal even without cleaning the voter rolls.

The way Comifornia does elections is a recipe for massive voting in someone else's name with negligible chance of getting caught. States that are completely vote by mail may be worse.

I've also given thought to vote by 'Net. The stumbling block I keep running into is voter validation without compromising the secret ballot should databases be cross referenced due to corruption or data leak. Physical tokens / ballots may be the only sure means around that difficulty.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

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