The unreasoning hostility to religion...

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Skipjack wrote:Sorry, but for me the whole "truth"- thing is bullcrap.
Well Skip, I suggest you pick up a class in philosophy 101. I'm not creating a distinction here and you'll find it all over. "Truth" and "fact" are not the same things and you'll even see it in the words of Indiana Jones, when he tells his class that they are there to study "fact" and if they'd rather study "truth" they should go down the hall and study philosophy.

All fictional literature caries truth (if it's interpretive rather than mere escapist fiction) and there is no requirement that the story be factual, in order to carry truth.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
Posts: 6898
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

Well, I dont do philosophy. I do science and facts. I think it is wrong to base decisions on philosophy instead of science and fact.
You can do philosophy is OK for those things that science does not have an answer to at all. E.g. the question whether the star trek teleporter would actually kill you (I say yes) and just put a clone of yourself in your place (which is why I would never use such a thing).
But these are philosophical questions as they (currently!) have no connection to reality.
Oh and in case you did not get it, Indy was making a derogatory remark, when he said that. He is a man of facts and archeology is a science.

Oh btw, I did have a humanistic education with a couple of years of philosophy and unfortunately also psychology...

One more thing in this context. Like a lot of physicists, I put string theory in the realm of philosophy, not science, because it can not be subjected to testing in experiment.

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Skipjack wrote:Oh and in case you did not get it, Indy was making a derogatory remark, when he said that. He is a man of facts and archeology is a science.
No, you're the one who didn't get it. In each of the IJ movies, IJ makes a statement like this and later finds out he was wrong. Both Spielberg and Lucas use this technique of showing their central protagonist to have clay feet, and later in the story they are corrected. In the case I mentioned below, Indy follows with telling the class they cannot afford to take myth at face value, and he goes on in private to tell his friend he's no believer, but of course what he finds in the Arc is indeed a thing of legend and he is a believer in its power. This is how he save's Marion's life, by convincing her to close her eyes.

Happens in all the Indy movies. Seem's you missed it.

Second movie he says the stones are just stones and ends the movie returning them and declaring he understands their power.

Third movie starts with him telling the class "X NEVER marks the spot. . .", but of course. . .sometimes it does. :-)
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
Posts: 6898
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

Yes, I know all these things. It is called "irony", dude!
Still Indy is a man of science and of course it is just a movie.
All the supernatural things in the movie, do not exist in reality.

chrismb
Posts: 3161
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

C'mon, GIT, I haven't got until Christmas, y'know! Please tell me what analytical theories religious types have come up with that cover the origin of God.... Please hurry, I am all anticipation.

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

chrismb wrote:C'mon, GIT, I haven't got until Christmas, y'know! Please tell me what analytical theories religious types have come up with that cover the origin of God.... Please hurry, I am all anticipation.
Well Chris, it's almost Christmas. I'll just say this: amongst all the names God gives himself, the most important is certainly the one he uses when he sends Moses to lead his people out of Egypt. Moses asks "who shall I say sent me?" and the burning bush responds "I AM, that I AM" or as the Jews certainly understood, a claim for pure, eternal existence. It's a big deal. When Jesus made the same claim, they crucified him for it.

I'd suggest you ponder through the holidays, how eternality has no origin. You're asking a conceptually confused question that has no real answer, IMHO.

Merry Christmas everyone!!! :-)
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

KitemanSA
Posts: 6188
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Location: OlyPen WA

Post by KitemanSA »

GIThruster wrote: Moses asks "who shall I say sent me?" and the burning bush responds "I AM, that I AM" or as the Jews certainly understood, a claim for pure, eternal existence.
And if he'd said "I YAM that I YAM" he'd have been Popeye! :roll:

chrismb
Posts: 3161
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

I think, GIT, that you will actually find a more authentic translation of the ancient Hebrew is; "and the burning bush said 'I iz wot I iz'".

Still utterly and totally non-analytical, so I think you have made your opponents point for them. That's another trick religious types use to dodge being analytical, they claim the questioner doesn't even understand the question (which therefore implies they think it is unknowable if they cannot explain why).

Anyone who thinks something is unknowable is not being analytical nor giving critical thinking towards the matter. Case concluded.

Giorgio
Posts: 3107
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

Typical of GIT to skip on direct questions he does not want to face.
I am still waiting replies from him on other threads. Not that I will loose my sleep if I do not get any.

chrismb
Posts: 3161
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

The other such type of question I occasionally pose to those receptive to such things is to ask the following;

If God is omniscient, presumably that means He must know what is going to happen in the future. [The religious type usually replies 'Yes, of course' to that bit.]

So He must also know what His reaction is going to be to that future scenario. [Usually a 'Yes, OK', or a 'He doesn't really exist in time as we know it']

The thing is that any entity whose behaviour is already determined is a machine and lacks self-will. Therefore, God is, at best, a computer or a machine, and He can never know what 'self-will' actually means. [I usually get 'but God is Unknowable' at that point (I've even had 'you shouldn't question Him like that!')..... and all hope of an interesting analysis dies]

I usually push the point home by then saying "We humans regard self-will as being a very important part of being human, and sets us in a superior position above the animals who are generally considered to lack self-will. Therefore, we are superior to God because, if we were not, then we'd be saying that our self-will is not a critical feature of us being conscious humans who can make choices."

They normally either walk off at that point, or otherwise I get one more line in; "We consider that our morality comes from our self-will and our capacity to choose good or evil, but as God has no self-will (because He is omniscient and has already decided all things in the future) then He is not a moral being because He cannot choose good from evil."


(....that's the kind of discussion I would expect to see, if it were an example of 'critical thinking'.)

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Chris, honestly, these are all kiddy questions that come up in philosophy 101. If you want a primer in philosophy, go pick up a $1 text book.

The proper and complete answer to the question of God's origin is that as the only eternal entity, God has no origin. I can't imagine why you think your questions are original. They're not.

Certainly "conceptually confused questions" exist that do not have an answer. The "immovable object meets an irresistible force" question is a good example. Because of the definitions of the words, there is no real answer to a conceptually confused question. When you ask about the "origin" of something eternal, the answer is there is no answer. You have improperly phrased the question.

Honestly stuff like "therefore we are superior to God" are obviously and stupidly wrong statements. The reason people walk away from you when you rant like that is not because of some stunning logic. It's because you make no sense and sound like someone who simply isn't worth the time. Reality check: if you're the only person impressed by your logic, you're not very impressive. (No doubt the atheists will now chime in that you're the world's most stunning atheist philosopher and won some point with this irrational drivel.)

Face it, Christmas Eve day and you're posting in a thread about people who are hostile to religion, and explaining about how you rant at people until they walk away. How much more evidence do we need that people are unreasonably hostile to religion?

Georgio, if you continue stalking me from thread to thread throwing your nasty taunts toward me in the complete absence of contribution to the issue at hand, I'll be forced sooner or later to complain and have you removed from the forum. Knock it off.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

chrismb
Posts: 3161
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

GIThruster wrote:Honestly stuff like "therefore we are superior to God" are obviously and stupidly wrong statements.
Is that your complete and well-formed argument? How thoroughly analytical.

So is it your claim that God does have 'choice', then?

chrismb
Posts: 3161
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by chrismb »

This thread should be renamed

"The unreasoning hostility to questioning religion."

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Chris, the answer depends upon what you mean by "choice".

If you were a Freshman level philosopher, you would have phrased the question thus: Is God Good because He chooses to be, or is God the definition of what is good?" and you would be trying to force me into an historically clever dichotomy. Once I chose one of the answers, you'd have a clever retort. Fact is, both are true. You don't get to force me to take a stand concerning such things simply to try to pigeon hole me.

Yes, God has an authentic choice. He describes us as "like him, in that we know good and evil".

No, God's nature makes him always make the same choice--for good. Our nature is not "Holy" in this same way, but that does not make God's choices less authentic.

And now lets have an answer from the atheist. Why is it you're posing question after freshman question in a thread about how some people have an unreasoning hostility toward religion, on Christmas Eve day? Assault after freshman assault, proof after proof you've never read a single chapter on philosophy of religion from a Phil 101 class. Over and again trying to pin me down and somehow win some illusory point in historic discussions you're entirely unfamiliar with? Why. . . why. . .why this unreasoning hostility to religion?

And why can't you just pick up a freshman primer? Any Introduction to Philosophy text will have this stuff in it. Just look under Philosophy of Religion. Or if you're really bold, get a 200 level text on Philosophy of Religion itself.
Last edited by GIThruster on Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

CaptainBeowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:35 am

Post by CaptainBeowulf »

I would say that if you want to be analytical, at this point in the discussion physics and cosmology have to be analyzed together with theology.

There's the question of what is the arrow of time? Does a universal time exist outside of areas of linked causality circumscribed by light cones (limited, of course, by the speed of light)?

By the definition of omnipotent above, something that exists throughout at least a large part of the universe travel is being described - ie. both inside and outside of our local light cone. Therefore it would likely exist through FTL effects (like quantum entanglement) or travel around at FTL speeds, and essentially exists in what we call the "future," the "present," and the "past."

That then raises all the typical time travel questions. Does changing the past cause the universe to branch into two new universes? Or does it change the timeline of the one existing universe? Or is there a temporal protection mechanism that prevents the "past" from being changed? Does the temporal protection mechanism mean that all influences from the "future" were already included in the past all along?

There's a saying that's been around for a while now: causality, general relativity, FTL - pick two out of three. All three can't be true. And general relativity seems pretty well proven.

So, if causality is immutable and there is a temporal protection mechanism, and a super-intelligence which exists outside of one limited light cone, then that entity would have highly constrained if non-existent free will.

If, on the other hand, the universe is less causal than we imagine (which I suspect is a strong possibility), an omnipotent or near-omnipotent entity may have the capacity to change history in order to cause the universe to take on forms that it prefers.

So, a God might exist outside of local time and yet also have free will. We really don't know enough about the universe to say one way or the other. Until we come up with a grand unification theory of physics that has no glaring holes in it, I don't think we can say. At this point I see no reason to trash people's belief systems, given the limited information available. I only see a reason to say that people should keep their beliefs separate from science. This doesn't mean that they should keep morality separate from science - I think any reasonable person can see that, say, the scenario in "The Island" is wrong - you don't create thinking clones and then murder them for spare parts. But you also don't postulate intelligent design when there's no evidence for it.

I am willing to agree that we're not sure how life first started, and it's perhaps slightly possible that something intelligent created the first cells on Earth, or else created them on some other planet and then spread them here through an act of panspermia. Or perhaps it didn't even do that. Maybe it just made the universe have the various physical constants that it has, knowing that with those specific conditions planets would form that would have the necessary conditions for life to arise. Maybe it's one of the laws of this universe that life arises where the conditions are right, just like stars form out of gas clouds. No way to really know about that either until we get a sample larger than one. I would say we can't really say until we've studied several thousands planets in "goldilocks zones." Even if life only emerges once in every several thousand star systems, that would mean tens of thousands of planets with life in this galaxy alone.

What I can say is that once life as we know it came into existence on Earth, it has evolved through natural selection. Humans evolved from prokaryotes through eukaryotes through chordota, fish, amphibians, early reptile-forms, therapsids, early mammals, primates, early hominids. Various suboptimal structures in the human body indicate that the morphological changes arose through mutations that were beneficial and then selected for, but not the best possible design. Something doing precise intelligent intervention would, say, have designed our knee joints better. We got "good enough" through natural selection.

So what I am trying to demonstrate here is that a rational person can believe in God and also in the scientific method, and such things as evolution through natural selection. Heck, IIRC even the Vatican's position these days is that evolution through natural selection is correct.

Personally, I'm an agnostic: as you might guess from what I wrote above, I think we have far too little information to currently judge what's going on in most of the universe. I see no conclusive evidence of God, but neither any conclusive evidence that something you could describe as God does not exist. From my perspective, to be an atheist and be certain of the non-existence of God requires a great deal of faith, just like religion does.

And, for the sake of tradition, I'll respond to GIThruster's Merry Christmas: Merry Christmas too to everyone here who participates in it, whether as a religious or simply a secular-commercial event! :lol: And Happy Hannukah, Festivus, Quanza or whatever you celebrate to any other reasonable people on here!

Post Reply