If we had just kept the F-22 production line funded...

[AcesHigh]

what China doesnt want is millions of refugees from North Korea in the case the regime falls.

China also likes North Korea as a territory "buffer" between China and S.Korea, specially considering the US presence in S.Korea.

I bet that if US got out of S.Korea and if there was some garantee that there wouldnt be millions of refugees from North Korea entering chinese territory, China wouldnt give a darn about S.Korea retaking the north.

S.Korea promises China some rebuilding contracts (much needed, since NKorea ALREADY needs to be rebuilt even before a war lol) and China may very well even help taking out Kim Jon Il.

[Skipjack]

China does not want a war at its doorstep. It is bad for business. Companies do not want to outsource their production to a country that has a potentially nuclear war happening next door. "Radioactive" toys, cars and cloths dont sell well in the west. Of course they would not really be radioactive, but you know how easy it is to manipulate people to be scared of anything "nukular" and there are plenty of forces that would have an interest in promoting that.
So yeah, I think that China will not let that happen.
There are no ideological ties left between the NK and China either.
China has not been a real communist country for decades now. In fact China is now a capitalist dicatatorship. Not a great place, but also no ideological ties with NK.
NKs days are numbered, if you ask me.

[AcesHigh]

I agree with that. But do you think if S.Koreans and the US promised some advantages to China, China would not only allow but maybe even help to depose the NK regime? Like country rebuilding contracts. Promise of not using NK territory for american bases or military equipment, etc, etc.

[DeltaV]

There are no ideological ties left between the NK and China either.
China has not been a real communist country for decades now. In fact China is now a capitalist dicatatorship.

That's called Fascism, a.k.a. National Socialism.

Wikipedia:

Fascism... is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology... Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy... Fascism was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I who combined extreme right-wing political views along with collectivism... Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right.

So China has jumped from the tip of the left wing to the tip of the right wing (a quantum, that is, smallest possible, leap):
viewtopic.php?p=28083&highlight=&sid=5b ... 756a#28083

I think I also saw the NK soldiers on TV goose stepping during their parade.

[Skipjack]

Well, the US right is not so different from that. Only that they would rather see a corporation at the top instead of a government. Same difference.

[DeltaV]

China's J-20



186 F-22s will not be enough.

Since our defense "experts" just shut down a functioning F-22 production line that was the end result of 30 years of work, if we start right now, with the "abundant" funds currently allocated for such work, we can have more of them rolling off of a new production line by, say, 2040.

Someone please tell the Chinese to slow down so we can catch up.

[AcesHigh]

the 2011 US military budget is larger than the military budget of all other countries in the world combined, and you complain that you dont spend enough with the military?? You really think China will be able to match its fleet to the US.

by 2020, the US will "only" have 20 times more advanced stealth planes than China... and you guys are desperate??

and China will only use those planes if the US threatens to help Taiwan against China. So just mind your own business and there wont even be a need to use your vastly superior air power, much less INCREASE it even more.


people´s reactions in this thread can only be described as PARANOIA

[DeltaV]

the 2011 US military budget is larger than the military budget of all other countries in the world combined,

Bullshit.

and you complain that you dont spend enough with the military??

I complained of no such thing. Go back and read my posts, and stop putting words in my mouth. What I complained about was that a 30 year long program, F-22, was terminated before a sufficient number of planes were produced to avoid having to do it all over again in a few years. You've obviously never done any serious engineering in the aerospace industry. Maybe you believe the Hollywood fantasy that systems like an F-22 can be produced virtually overnight if enough money is available, like Tony Stark building an Ironman suit in his workshop.

You really think China will be able to match its fleet to the US.

Yes. "Fleet" concerns quantity as well as quality. Do I think China's J-20 will have more capability than an F-22? No. I'd guess about 80% of F-22 performance is within their current reach. So they build 233 planes instead of 186. Big deal. With the world's second biggest economy and 1.2+ billion population to glean for scientists and engineers, things will move quickly. Just look at how far they've come in the past 20 years. Or maybe you don't know what China used to be like?

by 2020, the US will "only" have 20 times more advanced stealth planes than China... and you guys are desperate??

This thread is about air-superiority fighters. F-35s are not air-superiority fighters. China clearly has the resources to crank out thousands of planes by 2020. How do you know how many planes the Politburo and PLAAF are planning for 2020, anyway? Are you a Politburo member?

and China will only use those planes if the US threatens to help Taiwan against China.

How the hell would you know? What if they want to help out their strategic partner Russia in some conflict? Or take part, again, in a war between North and South Korea? Or annex Singapore? Nobody but China knows what China's long term intentions are.

So just mind your own business and there wont even be a need to use your vastly superior air power, much less INCREASE it even more.

You must be Brazil's version of Neville Chamberlain.

people´s reactions in this thread can only be described as PARANOIA

Paranoia. It's just good policy, especially when dealing with Communist dictatorships that rule with an iron hand. Do you live near the Venezuelan border? Are you a Liberation Theologist, or a follower of Chavez?

[Skipjack]

Maybe you believe the Hollywood fantasy that systems like an F-22 can be produced virtually overnight if enough money is available, like Tony Stark building an Ironman suit in his workshop.

Uhm, that is exactly what the US did in WW1 and also WW2. You virtually cranked up your weapons production over night and produced so much that you just overran your enemies with masses of weapons.

Yes. "Fleet" concerns quantity as well as quality.

This is why I am convinced that future UAVs with strike capabilities will take over, cheaply mass produced, controlled in bulk with the F22s and and other manned jets to keep their back.

How do you know how many planes the Politburo and PLAAF are planning for 2020, anyway? Are you a Politburo member?

I think they are most interested in producing planes for export.

What if they want to help out their strategic partner Russia in some conflict?

Since when did China and Russia become strategic partners?
Last time I checked, they did not like each other.

Or take part, again, in a war between North and South Korea?

As we had established in this thread (or some other thread on this board) earlier, China is not interested in instability and war on the Korean peninsula, it is bad for business.

Or annex Singapore? Nobody but China knows what China's long term intentions are.

It is quite obvious. They want to become the worlds strongest economy. Looking at the recent US history, it is quite obvious that fighting long and expensive wars does not help that. In turn, arch enemy Taiwan just signed a trade agreement with China. China is getting what it wants without firing a single bullet.

Paranoia. It's just good policy, especially when dealing with Communist dictatorships that rule with an iron hand.

How many of those are there still?
Cuba, North Korea and uhm...?
China is not communist anymore. It is a capitalistic dictatorship. No communist ideology there since Deng Xiaoping took over.
This is also why they will not support North Korea any more than absolutely necessary to keep their face. IMHO, they are about to drop NK like a hot potato any moment. All they are doing is giving them just enough food to keep the place from becoming completely unstable (which could result in catastrophy).

[AcesHigh]

the 2011 US military budget is larger than the military budget of all other countries in the world combined,

Bullshit.

http://rt.com/usa/news/usa-house-military-spending/
"The US House has passed a $725 billion military budget with no debate, the largest single military spending bill in world history. The US defense budget is now nearly equal to the military spending of all other nations combined. The new budget allocates more on American military spending than was spent by the US during World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam War, or the Cold War Reagan era military buildup. US military expenditures have risen by at about 119%. The budget highlights both spending increases put in place under former US president George W. Bush and current President Barack Obama."


2009 figures (World: 1.5 trillion dollars)
1 United States 663,255,000,000 4.3%
2 China 98,800,000,000 2.0%
3 United Kingdom 69,271,000,000 2.5%
4 France 67,316,000,000 2.3%
5 Russia 61,000,000,000 3.5%
6 Germany 48,022,000,000 1.3%
7 Japan 46,859,000,000 0.9%
8 Saudi Arabia 39,257,000,000 8.2%
9 Italy 37,427,000,000 1.7%
10 India 36,600,000,000 2.6%
11 South Korea 27,130,000,000 2.8%
12 Brazil 27,124,000,000 1.5%
13 Canada 20,564,000,000 1.3%
14 Australia 20,109,000,000 1.8%
15 Spain 19,409,000,000 1.2%
16 Turkey 19,009,000,000 2.2%
17 Israel 14,309,000,000 7.0%
18 Greece 13,917,000,000 3.6%
19 United Arab Emirates 13,052,000,000a 5.9%a
20 Netherlands 12,642,000,000 1.4%
21 Poland 10,860,000,000 2.0%
22 Colombia 10,055,000,000 3.7%

[mdeminico]

and China will only use those planes if the US threatens to help Taiwan against China. So just mind your own business and there wont even be a need to use your vastly superior air power, much less INCREASE it even more.

Yeah, because defending another free nation from the aggression of a totalitarian state is wrong... So we should just pitch them to the Chinese wolves.

[mdeminico]

Uhm, that is exactly what the US did in WW1 and also WW2. You virtually cranked up your weapons production over night and produced so much that you just overran your enemies with masses of weapons.

An all-out war today would be over in a matter of days, maybe weeks. Air power would utterly decimate one side or the other, and leave no production capability for a long time.

Look at Saddam's ability to mount a war after our air power had their way. In the same way, we could easily take away a nation's ability to produce things by destroying key factories.

[mdeminico]

the 2011 US military budget is larger than the military budget of all other countries in the world combined,

Bullshit.

http://rt.com/usa/news/usa-house-military-spending/
"The US House has passed a $725 billion military budget with no debate, the largest single military spending bill in world history. The US defense budget is now nearly equal to the military spending of all other nations combined. The new budget allocates more on American military spending than was spent by the US during World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam War, or the Cold War Reagan era military buildup. US military expenditures have risen by at about 119%. The budget highlights both spending increases put in place under former US president George W. Bush and current President Barack Obama."


2009 figures (World: 1.5 trillion dollars)
1 United States 663,255,000,000 4.3%
2 China 98,800,000,000 2.0%
3 United Kingdom 69,271,000,000 2.5%
4 France 67,316,000,000 2.3%
5 Russia 61,000,000,000 3.5%
6 Germany 48,022,000,000 1.3%
7 Japan 46,859,000,000 0.9%
8 Saudi Arabia 39,257,000,000 8.2%
9 Italy 37,427,000,000 1.7%
10 India 36,600,000,000 2.6%
11 South Korea 27,130,000,000 2.8%
12 Brazil 27,124,000,000 1.5%
13 Canada 20,564,000,000 1.3%
14 Australia 20,109,000,000 1.8%
15 Spain 19,409,000,000 1.2%
16 Turkey 19,009,000,000 2.2%
17 Israel 14,309,000,000 7.0%
18 Greece 13,917,000,000 3.6%
19 United Arab Emirates 13,052,000,000a 5.9%a
20 Netherlands 12,642,000,000 1.4%
21 Poland 10,860,000,000 2.0%
22 Colombia 10,055,000,000 3.7%

Without even bothering to look at other data, I have a point to make to you... There's this little thing going on right now, it's called a war. And it costs a LOT of money to keep hundreds of thousands of soldiers fed, in uniform, in field, and with salaries. Not to mention the logistics costs, equipment cost, etc.

[Skipjack]

There's this little thing going on right now, it's called a war. And it costs a LOT of money to keep hundreds of thousands of soldiers fed, in uniform, in field, and with salaries. Not to mention the logistics costs, equipment cost, etc.

And WW2 was a smaller war? The Vietnam war was smaller too?
Anyway, I have said it before. The cost of fighting wars is enormous and I wonder how long the US will be able to keep up doing that.
As was mentioned in the quoted article, the US is spending more money than it did during any of the previous wars.

[happyjack27]

hmm... i went to consult the cia world fact book to discover that:
a.) military expenditures are in % gdp
b.) only listed for the most recent year
c.) gdp is listed as purchasing power parity, not exchange rate as military expenditures are listed.

so essentially it's a dead end in more ways than one.

central intelligence agency? central Obfuscation agency!

you think with all that "intelligence" they could produce a meaningful report.

in anycase, the figures i recall (which USED to be in the factbook) are very much the same as reported above. no exaggeration that we spend more than every other country COMBINED!

don't get me wrong, it makes for some impressive air shows, but i'd trade that any day for a few decent conversations at a bar. (my pithy way of saying i'd rather that money be spent on something more production, such as e.g. education)