Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

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mvanwink5
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Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by mvanwink5 »

From WP:
Jeb Bush previews 2016 run, promising ‘adult conversations’ on big issues
Bush was sharply critical of Washington — not only of President Obama but also of the Republican-controlled Congress — saying there were too many “academic and political hacks” with “hard-core ideology” who are running the country without making progress.
Sly way of criticizing Repubs who aren't slick Progs like himself. Private Placement cronies like o'l Jeb are big money backers of their man. Yes, the con is in. 'Adults' support the crony Repub's man.

So, those with 'hard-core ideology', ya' know, like those that believe in freedom and not progressive socialism, well, they are just not adults (like him). And they just can't get 'things' done. Remember the national debt? Endless wars making endless money for Gubermant cronies? Yes, the adults like him support those adult Gubermant adult choices.

And endless economic Federal Reserve created boom - bust cycles? Private Placement crony moneymen - adults - get their cheap money, take big risks, then get bailed out. Yes, adult decisions need adults, and Jeb's their (adult) man. Smell's to high heaven, but I guess my big nose is just not adult enough.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

MSimon
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by MSimon »

Well don't let your nose get out of joint. ;-) Personally I favor smaller government. But it is not a popular position. Even in the "small" government party. Liberty is currently out of fashion. Some one might do something some one else doesn't like. And only government can protect us from "them". Dontcha know. Social engineers to the right of me. Social engineers to the left. And here I am. Stuck in the middle with who? Or whom.
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Betruger
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by Betruger »

You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

MSimon
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by MSimon »

Ah that would make communism the communism of socialism.

But actually libertarians have one very glaring defect. They are not interested in running other people's lives. A rare and strange affliction.

BTW aren't you from that area of the world where government declares the size and shape of bananas that are allowed in trade? Where accidents of birth are accorded not only undue respect but also titles?

============

Funny enough I have tried many of the various political currents in my life time and have finally stuck with leaving people alone as working the best. It was my country's founding principle although imperfectly adhered to. We are continually trying to live up to that ideal. What was it? Ah yes. I recall. Limited government.

Because the truth is that behind every tax and regulation there is an army of bureaucrats and behind those bureaucrats there is another army of enforcers. Dead weight the lot of them. The load is always uncomfortable and if allowed to grow unchecked it strangles the host. In the name of the greatest good for the greatest number.

“Political tags–such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth–are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.” – Robert A. Heinlein
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Betruger
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by Betruger »

MSimon I have the luxury of being from nowhere in particular, keeping only the parts of other cultures I approve of. Blind tribalism is for suckers.
MSimon wrote:The load is always uncomfortable and if allowed to grow unchecked it strangles the host. In the name of the greatest good for the greatest number.
Ya know, not to pointlessly stir the pot, but you and/or Diogenes plugged into, for a bit, what looks like an echo chamber over in Charles Stross' comments/forum just might make for interesting, or at least entertaining dialog. If only because of that critical mass of shrewdness and experience.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

MSimon
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:MSimon I have the luxury of being from nowhere in particular, keeping only the parts of other cultures I approve of. Blind tribalism is for suckers.
MSimon wrote:The load is always uncomfortable and if allowed to grow unchecked it strangles the host. In the name of the greatest good for the greatest number.
Ya know, not to pointlessly stir the pot, but you and/or Diogenes plugged into, for a bit, what looks like an echo chamber over in Charles Stross' comments/forum just might make for interesting, or at least entertaining dialog. If only because of that critical mass of shrewdness and experience.
D. and I agree on a great many things. One of them is that socialism doesn't work. There is no point though in entering that forum because from what I can tell it is full of true believers with hardly any counter weight.

So let me see. Both D and I agree that over regulation and over taxation of the economic sphere is disastrous to an economy.

I apply that same thinking to the social sphere. D does not. He is afraid of what social liberty would bring. Just as your socialists are afraid of what economic liberty would bring. Trouble is the one kind of socialism feeds the other. So the guy who said " libertarianism is the communism of capitalism " was simply being incoherent. Or cute.Or maybe he meant taking liberty to the extreme would lead to disaster. But that is not what we find. Minimum government and a country prospers. Maximum government and a country declines.

We can take Israel as a counter example. When they over regulated business the economy stagnated. They cut those regulations and now they have quite a vibrant economy. They were never inclined to over regulate the social sphere. Proof of that if that Raphael Mechoulam is an Israeli. Until recently his kind of work would have been strangled in America. In fact when it comes to human trials it still is.

Just to give you an idea. Recently these Jews contacted me about some things.

http://www.illuminating.us/

Now if you read that you find they are quite liberal socially. And not so liberal fiscally. But I'm heartened that Milton Friedman (a self described libertarian) was a Jew. As was Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum. Although a libertarian she called it something else.

http://druglibrary.org/special/friedman ... _drugs.htm

http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Ayn_Rand_Drugs.htm

Thing is Bush is going to have to contend with the millennials. And they are quite libertarian. Obama care and "free tuition until you graduate" is crushing them. As is Nixon's program. Which was designed to target theyoungthepoorandtheblack. You can already see the Black revolt in DC. The revolt of the youth will be evident in the 2016 or 2020 election.

I suppose what hurts D most is that he no longer recognizes the country he grew up in. For me it is heading in a direction I could only have dreamed of 25 years ago. So for him the current situation is pain all around. For me it is hopeful. I think we will correct the economic strangulation and the social strangulation is already well into the unwinding.

BTW tell me more about Charlie's politics. I couldn't figure it out with some casual searches. The Greek thread you linked seems socialist all the way down.
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Betruger
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by Betruger »

Yep the comment columns are a slog. But if you just skim thru it and stop on Charlie's comments (his avatar sticks out), it is worth it (YMMV). I can't really characterize his philosophy because he is pretty darn sharp and informed, so it's fractal all the way down as far as I can tell. I've never had the time to actually piece together how it all makes sense. What (if any) key notions underlie everything.

Off the top of my head, the only fatal flaw (IMHO) is one thing he seems to seriously believe - a general measure of politics (IIRC that was the crux of it) is whether it makes children cry. I literally did a double take on that one.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

MSimon
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:Yep the comment columns are a slog. But if you just skim thru it and stop on Charlie's comments (his avatar sticks out), it is worth it (YMMV). I can't really characterize his philosophy because he is pretty darn sharp and informed, so it's fractal all the way down as far as I can tell. I've never had the time to actually piece together how it all makes sense. What (if any) key notions underlie everything.

Off the top of my head, the only fatal flaw (IMHO) is one thing he seems to seriously believe - a general measure of politics (IIRC that was the crux of it) is whether it makes children cry. I literally did a double take on that one.
He seems kinda socialist in this one: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-st ... nt-1964726

And another really double stupid idea - a wealth tax:
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-st ... nt-1964757
Intentionally shrinking capital is really dumb. Double dumb.

And here he has basically decided that some commissar decides what is worth getting paid for:
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-st ... nt-1964761

The problem with all these utopian schemes is that they assume "all the commissars will be like me. Nice folks with good brains and good hearts and will make decisions on the merits." But that is not who gets attracted and it is definitely not who gets promoted.

And he doesn't like libertarians because they want people to produce things that others will want. The alternative is the equivalent of paying some people to dig holes with no purpose and others to fill them in.

And I thought you said he had some logic and dealt with facts. He doesn't get incentives. And that is the failure of socialism. Economic and social. You start talking incentives with a socialist and their eyes glaze over.

What is ironic is that you talk to the right about Prohibition and all their economics goes out the window. You talk to the left about Prohibition and they totally get the economics. Obviously there are blind spots. Places where logic need not apply. I ask the right why not apply what you know in every other realm here? Blank stares. I ask the left why not apply what you know here everywhere else? Blank stares. Laugh? Or cry?
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Betruger
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by Betruger »

I'll concede it if you give it one try by offering a good argument and he fails to refute. I'll learn something either way. He'll be unavailable till late Feb.
MSimon wrote: Laugh? Or cry?
Laugh, IMO. It's all just a joke ultimately.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:I'll concede it if you give it one try by offering a good argument and he fails to refute. I'll learn something either way. He'll be unavailable till late Feb.
MSimon wrote: Laugh? Or cry?
Laugh, IMO. It's all just a joke ultimately.
I actually have useful things to do. It is amazing that the once proud and independent Scots have fallen for a politics of dependency. They used to favor liberty.

BTW any one that far into it is not going to come back with an argument I would consider rational.
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Betruger
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by Betruger »

MSimon wrote: any one that far into it is not going to come back with an argument I would consider rational.
That would be QED.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

MSimon
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:
MSimon wrote: any one that far into it is not going to come back with an argument I would consider rational.
That would be QED.
Well you can believe what you like. But if finding out is important to you why not give it a shot yourself?
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Betruger
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by Betruger »

Or I can believe what makes most sense. In a nutshell, I don't do it myself because I am not you.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by MSimon »

Betruger wrote:Or I can believe what makes most sense. In a nutshell, I don't do it myself because I am not you.
OK. You buy that stuff. It is unsustainable. The incentives are wrong.
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Betruger
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Re: Only Progressives Are Adults? Ask Jeb Bush

Post by Betruger »

I think there's some kinda misunderstanding.

I'm not getting into an argument over there because I'm not eloquent enough, and don't have as much experience to draw from in terms of concrete evidence to back up my arguments. I'd have to do a lot of homework for it instead of being able to mostly shoot from the hip. I'm not convinced Stross' leftist ideas are wrong, and I'm not convinced there actually is an ultimate political answer, but I do get too many wrong feelings that something's amiss when I read his and their arguments. It reads too much like brainwashed zealotry.

Which then gets me wanting a sanity check, cause even if that same feeling comes thru reading his novels, it just seems like... He should know better?
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

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