Talk-Polywell.org

I'll admit that I spend too much time on various forums. Nevertheless, it's led me to observe a common feature of discussions of fusion.

A person will come into a thread and proclaim that company so-and-so is a scam, or that fusion is always 10 years away, or that fusion won't be realized for another 50 years, or that only big science projects like ITER are relevant, or that commercial fusion will never happen at all.

Upon questioning the person, it becomes apparent that they really don't know much about the topic.

I find this intensely frustrating but don't have a solution to offer.

Carl White wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:39 pm

I'll admit that I spend too much time on various forums. Nevertheless, it's led me to observe a common feature of discussions of fusion.

A person will come into a thread and proclaim that company so-and-so is a scam, or that fusion is always 10 years away, or that fusion won't be realized for another 50 years, or that only big science projects like ITER are relevant, or that commercial fusion will never happen at all.

Upon questioning the person, it becomes apparent that they really don't know much about the topic.

I find this intensely frustrating but don't have a solution to offer.

I have been seeing the same over every issue.
People take as granted everything they heard by someone they follow/share same political or moral view. Practically no one takes anymore the time to actually verify if those claims are true or not.
Before I used to grab every occasion to explain that reality is much more complex than some opinions from people that are not even experts on the subject, but is not really worth anymore the effort.
Now I explain only if someone asks and shows a real interest and wish to understand another point of view. But those type of people are scarcer each year that passes.

A clear indication of how the average human IQ is going downhill in the newest generations (with very few exceptions)....

People with extreme positions tend to be the least informed about the issue they proclaim the extreme position for.
Modern populist culture is also deeply rooted in the Information Age.
Every clown now has a podium, and to quote a wise song, "We can do "The Innuendo", we can dance and sing, When it's said and done, we haven't told you a thing, We all know that crap is king"

Oh yeah! I have noticed that a lot. Usually it is because someone made a YouTube video. And somehow that someone knows everything and everything better than the people actually working on it. A good term is "arm chair engineers".

Time is fast running out for the naysayers, then watch how those that predicted the exact time of commercial Fusion will suddenly appear. No matter, the big factor is how fast fusion gets deployed.

Some of the naysaying is highly likely linked to entities seeking to undermine positions of others in order to improve their own. Specifically along the lines of funding access and levels and additionally costing for access to other's work.
Given the jump in money made available for fusion efforts these last few years, one can be sure there are efforts being made to shape those funding streams for personal benefits.
Others I have seen with targeted naysaying at times seem to have been seeking to raise their own importance in the arena.
All in all, I am sure with these levels of money, there are certainly some stabbings occurring as folks jockey for position.
Sad. One would like to think science can be pure, however the history of science is replete with great skullduggery. Roasted elephants not withstanding.

ladajo wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 06, 2024 8:36 pm

Some of the naysaying is highly likely linked to entities seeking to undermine positions of others in order to improve their own. Specifically along the lines of funding access and levels and additionally costing for access to other's work.
Given the jump in money made available for fusion efforts these last few years, one can be sure there are efforts being made to shape those funding streams for personal benefits.
Others I have seen with targeted naysaying at times seem to have been seeking to raise their own importance in the arena.
All in all, I am sure with these levels of money, there are certainly some stabbings occurring as folks jockey for position.
Sad. One would like to think science can be pure, however the history of science is replete with great skullduggery. Roasted elephants not withstanding.

I think that the competition between fusion companies is mostly friendly. It seems to be less about funding but more about personnel. The fusion field was never that big before. So we are lacking qualified people.
That said, I have seen a lot of the anti- fusion sentiment coming from anti- nuclear circles, like Greenpeace and other NGOs. There is of course also some from competing energy sources like fossil and renewable energy companies. Some fossil fuel companies seem to be hedging their bets and invest in fusion, though.

I am not sure I would say that it is mostly friendly. I think there is a high degree of competing going on based on what I've seen/experienced.
That said, it is not overtly hostile.
I also re-read my post, and want to clarify that personal benefit was meant to be oriented to company benefit, vice individuals.
That said, I do think there is/has been some Rossi-like corrupt practices seeking to make money vice produce results here and there.
You can't put chum in the water without some fish looking to eat for free.

Aside from certain far left types and institutions, "hostility" towards fusion power is not really hostility. Its just skepticism over it being developed in the time frame being claimed by start-ups like Helion.

Several so called "green NGOs" have already started to gear up against fusion. Greenpeace is one and I think Friends of the Earth is another, but I might be mixing them up with a different one (there are so many).

Skipjack wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:14 pm

Several so called "green NGOs" have already started to gear up against fusion. Greenpeace is one and I think Friends of the Earth is another, but I might be mixing them up with a different one (there are so many).

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but these organizations are anti-human. Any technology that continues to allow humanity to grow and expand will be opposed.

usesbiggerwords wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 18, 2024 2:20 pm

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but these organizations are anti-human. Any technology that continues to allow humanity to grow and expand will be opposed.

IBID

Crazy is as Crazy does.

It does seem to present as a complex interwoven enemy of my enemy is my friend (for now) construct with a range of relationships from coincidental to fully vested and integrated.
Kind of reminds me of the anti-nuclear movement in the 70s to 80s who eventually killed American nuclear power industry with crushing over-regulation and government intervention, alongside hysteria and hype.
TMI-2 is a great example. It should have been a success story of design margins and fallbacks preventing multiple errors from tragic consequences.
Instead, it was similar to Fukashima where media hype and populist rhetoric drove the narrative with big red blobs marching across maps. Big red blobs which represented nothing of practical value in reality.
TMI-2 melted its core, and contained it as designed. I was at INEL when they were doing the analysis on the deflated slag ball formerly known as the core. It was a triumph in engineering. Validation of many margins. Even as excessive as they were. That core melt was going nowhere but a puddle in the bottom of the vessel.
https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1234/ML12340A344.pdf

That core melt was going nowhere but a puddle in the bottom of the vessel.

The sad irony of all this is unless you're a trained engineer or physicist, all you're going to understand is "reactor got too hot and broke, it's too dangerous, BLARGH!" Designing safe failure modes is not something many comprehend.

Several so called "green NGOs" have already started to gear up against fusion. Greenpeace is one and I think Friends of the Earth is another, but I might be mixing them up with a different one (there are so many).

This is what I meant by far left whacko organizations.