Helion Energy to demonstrate net electricity production by 2024

[jrvz]

That would be H. R. 5441 https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-con ... 41/text/ih.

Some of those "fusion energy components" sound pretty generic:
“(vii) A high-voltage capacitor.
“(x) High-power switches.
“(xii) High-voltage conductors and insulators.
“(xvii) Cooling system components.
I don't know how the rest of Section 45X of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 reads (since this bill just amends it), but I wonder whether this is open to abuse.

[Skipjack]

You would be surprised how difficult it is to get capacitors and high power switches of certain specifications. There is a very good reason why Helion and Zap (and I believe others) have to manufacture caps and other equipment in-house. For certain electronic components related to fast and high power switches there are long lead times because of (currently) relatively small series. The Chinese are quick at building manufacturing lines.
David Kirtley is absolutely right: Just having the first fusion power plant is worthless if the Chinese capture the mass market with cheap knock- offs.

[baking]

You would be surprised how difficult it is to get capacitors and high power switches of certain specifications. There is a very good reason why Helion and Zap (and I believe others) have to manufacture caps and other equipment in-house. For certain electronic components related to fast and high power switches there are long lead times because of (currently) relatively small series. The Chinese are quick at building manufacturing lines.
David Kirtley is absolutely right: Just having the first fusion power plant is worthless if the Chinese capture the mass market with cheap knock- offs.

Can you tell me what the very good reason is why Helion has to manufacture capacitors in-house? It can't be lead times anymore, since they are spending years building a capacitor factory at 1215 80th St SW. There are a number of US manufacturers that can build pulsed-power capacitors to spec and can easily meet their deadlines for Orion and beyond.

It really does sound like Helion wants a tax credit for making the capacitors in-house.

[usesbiggerwords]

Can you tell me what the very good reason is why Helion has to manufacture capacitors in-house?

My understanding is that Helion's cap design is actually an older one that isn't readily available anymore, due to the specific performance characteristics they need for their energy capture design. I could be completely wrong on this.

[Munchausen]

The talking of supply chain issues gives me bad feelings. Helion haven't yet got a decisively proven technology. Once they have that, they'll have access to pretty much any resource needed to get it into serial production.

Fishy priorities really...

Yes, theres has been de-industrialization but the US is still a vast country with tremendous resources that can be mobilized for such an earth shattering innovation. Given there is only a miniscule amount of sanity in the political priorities of your country.

Heck, even little Sweden has a whole town living of the art of switching huge amounts of power on and off and selling equipment for it all over the world.

[TallDave]

yes, Helion looks strange because they aren't building a fusion reactor, like everyone else is doing

they're building a fusion reactor factory

their goal is to pump out 50MWe units like aircraft

that seems absurdly optimistic because almost no one has been able to a plasma ignited for more than a few seconds, until you remember they aren't trying to keep a plasma ignited

I was a bit more skeptical until Kirtley recently gave out their 95% recirculation number, they need only a tiny Polaris-sized machine with a Q of less than 1.2 to get 5MJ net electric power from a 50MJ pulse

everything they are doing is exactly what you would do if you were already sure the physics works

is that optimism misplaced? we'll see

but they only need their FRC physics to hold together for less than a ms

[baking]

everything they are doing is exactly what you would do if you were already sure the physics works

Or if you wanted people to think that you were already sure the physics works.

[Munchausen]

yes, Helion looks strange because they aren't building a fusion reactor, like everyone else is doing

they're building a fusion reactor factory

their goal is to pump out 50MWe units like aircraft

that seems absurdly optimistic because almost no one has been able to a plasma ignited for more than a few seconds, until you remember they aren't trying to keep a plasma ignited

I was a bit more skeptical until Kirtley recently gave out their 95% recirculation number, they need only a tiny Polaris-sized machine with a Q of less than 1.2 to get 5MJ net electric power from a 50MJ pulse

everything they are doing is exactly what you would do if you were already sure the physics works

is that optimism misplaced? we'll see

but they only need their FRC physics to hold together for less than a ms

A rock-hard confidence in the underlying physics is the nicest explanation to what we are seeing.

I asked the google AI whether the 95 % energy recirculation number was a proven fact. The answer I got was:

Helion Energy's claim of a 95% energy recirculation efficiency is a company claim, not an independently verified and proven fact for a complete fusion

It also stated:

Demonstrated without plasma: Helion has publicly stated and demonstrated that in their subscale pulsed magnetic systems without plasma, they can recover electrical energy stored in capacitors at over 95% efficiency. This is a demonstration of the efficiency of the electrical components (e.g., RLC circuit with fast switches).

Claim for the full system: The company's fusion approach is designed to recover energy from the hot, expanding plasma directly as electricity at a similarly high efficiency, which is a key part of their plan to achieve net energy without needing full "ignition".

Lack of independent verification with fusion present: The crucial part—demonstrating this 95% (or greater, with fusion energy gain) efficiency with an actual fusion plasma that is producing net energy—has not been publicly released or independently verified by external experts.

Lets hope for the best. Optimism is nice. We need more of that.

[Skipjack]

Can you tell me what the very good reason is why Helion has to manufacture capacitors in-house?

My understanding is that Helion's cap design is actually an older one that isn't readily available anymore, due to the specific performance characteristics they need for their energy capture design. I could be completely wrong on this.

Exactly!
Helion needs capacitors that last for hundreds of millions of charge and discharge cycles and they have to do so reliably without failure. That is why they are using caps with a relatively low power and energy density (and then they are packed in steel casings) and that is why their capacitor bank is so big.

And the lead times for these types of capacitors were and still ARE a problem. That is why Helion has been making their own. They would not be wasting their time and money with this if there were off the shelf components available.
In a recent interview, they actually talked about how they are using Ebay and any other means they have to get stuff of the shelf (even if used).

Do you think their investors are not turning every dime before they let them spend that money?

Seriously, it sometimes feels like people here think that David Kirtley can just go around and spend all that investment to his liking. The board of investors wants to know about every little thing how it was spent, why it was spent and why it was not spent on some alternative that could be cheaper. It is their money! Not his!

[Skipjack]

On a different note:
There is a new video on Youtube. It shows some new (previously unseen) footage of their facility and has some interesting insights into their engineering, the magnet development and the challenges.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOL2S3N6Kw

[TallDave]

I asked the google AI whether the 95 % energy recirculation number was a proven fact. The answer I got was:

lol of course it's not proven, it was a comment he made last week about a proprietary technology

I have clients with trade secret manufacturing processes dating back to the 1950s, none of which are scientifically proven in peer-reviewed journals or publicly demonstrated, and never will be

the only hard proof we are likely to get is 50MWe of power flowing to the grid, as Helion is a real commercial company not a science project

[TallDave]

everything they are doing is exactly what you would do if you were already sure the physics works

!
Or if you wanted people to think that you were already sure the physics works.

in this scenario, who are they trying to convince by building a factory?

the public? who cares what they think? it's not publicly funded anyway

their investors? doesn't seem likely building a factory with their money is going to convince them of anything they didn't already believe when they funded them to build it

potential customers? they're not going to buy reactors if Orion doesn't work

it may be an act of unmitigated chutzpah, even hubris, but all indications are it's an honest (albeit audacious) business venture

[baking]

everything they are doing is exactly what you would do if you were already sure the physics works

!
Or if you wanted people to think that you were already sure the physics works.

in this scenario, who are they trying to convince by building a factory?

the public? who cares what they think? it's not publicly funded anyway

their investors? doesn't seem likely building a factory with their money is going to convince them of anything they didn't already believe when they funded them to build it

potential customers? they're not going to buy reactors if Orion doesn't work

it may be an act of unmitigated chutzpah, even hubris, but all indications are it's an honest (albeit audacious) business venture

I don't know if you've been keeping up with the news, but it's to keep the OpenAI bubble from popping.