Liberal view of Government.

[Skipjack]

I think you have a very idealized view of how this would work out in the end.
Please forgive me if I have my doubts.
Oh, also forgive me if I am sometimes coming over as snappy, but your tone was in no way better than mine. The way you shout into the forrest...

[KitemanSA]

I think you have a very idealized view of how this would work out in the end.
Please forgive me if I have my doubts.

My view is based on seeing it happen repeatedly over more than 40 years.
You are entitled to your doubts. But someone from a socialist country tends not to see the changes when socialistic measures are put into place, or removed, so they tend to have a limited view of the processes.

[Skipjack]

But someone from a socialist country tends not to see the changes when socialistic measures are put into place, or removed, so they tend to have a limited view of the processes.

Hu? Explain that please. Why would I not see that.
Besides, I do observe quite a lot. I am actually associated with one of those local parties that are opposing our socialist party. So I am very much looking at alternatives with an open eye. After all I need good arguments against socialism where it does not work.
However, I look at the US and I see problems with the system. I am making a direct comparison and I am doing that from the POV of someone who can make the choice.
So what is wrong with me pointing out the flaws in your current system?

[Diogenes]

Are you familiar with the word Fungible ? When I wrote this I was thinking that the Austrian perspective may overlook the fact that money is fungible. What you don't spend on defense, you might spend on Health care. We, might have the opposite problem. Without looking into it deeply, I cannot assert anything with certainty. H*ll, perhaps the Austrian system DOES work better. I just don't know enough of all the factors involved to espouse an informed judgment.

Nope, not even my wife is, who is an american.

WHAT !!! An American that doesn't know a somewhat uncommon English word ? Who would have thought such a thing possible ?

Well our defense and our health care cost are lower than yours. But then, in return, I have to say that we do not have much of military here in Austria.
We do spend a lot of money ond social stuff, like pensions unemployment, etc. This is getting harder and harder to sustain. The "new" Austrians are abusing the system to much, while the "old" Austrians dont have enough children.
But, it is still working.

This reminds me of the joke about the optimist who fell out of a 12 story building. Upon passing the 6th floor on his way down he exclaims, "So far, so good!"

If it is unsustainable, it can hardly be considered a success.

The funny thing is that we do pay about the same amount of taxes you do, maybe a few percent more. Only those US citizens that make more than 70k a year or so pay less than we do. So most pay about the same.
However, from my perspective we get more.
Schools universities, health care, maternity leave, retirement, unemployment money, etc. It is all paid for by the government.
For the same money most americans pay. I looked it up and did the math. It comes out the same, or almost the same (2 percent different or so, but in return you have to pay property taxes for your house that we do not have).
My wife has seen both worlds. She grew up in the US, but she does see the benefits of our system too.
I dont want to say that your system is inferior to ours, but it is at least not THAT superior either and that comes at a price.

Did you factor in Defense spending ? It is a topic of discussion among various people that I know that Europe and Canada rely too heavily on the USA to defend them, rather than applying some of their tax money to their defense industry as they would necessarily do if they didn't have the USA to rely on.

Said another way, There is the perception that Europe and Canada can afford more social services because they are NOT spending the money on defending themselves. In effect, American Taxpayers are subsidizing Canadian and European social services because they are paying to defend these nations instead of the nations paying to defend themselves.

That is exactly the point I meant about Fungibility.

An example. Why does it cost $1,000.00 per day to lie in a bed in a room ? Why does a 30 minute procedure costing $800.00 require an $11,000.00 operating room ?
Yeah, things are pretty screwed up.

I agree, they are. IMHO the reasons for this lie in the fact that there are not enough doctors, there are not enough beds. That means a lack of competition. Further hospitals end up not always getting ther money (as you pointed out) and they have to compensate.

Who limits the supply of Doctors ? The State Governments. They set the requirements very high to become a Doctor, and they criminalize the practice of medicine by anyone but a State Licensed Doctor.

My experience has demonstrated to me over and over again that many of the ailments that Doctors treat can be treated just as successfully by a nurse/practitioner. Doctors routinely guess a Diagnosis with the flimsiest of examinations and evidence.

An example of my own personal experience. Years ago I developed a sore. Over the course of a few days it went from being itchy to swollen and painful. I went to a local doctor. He pronounced it a "Spider bite," and told me to just keep it clean. I quickly developed a horrible fever, and lay in bed for three days suffering from this "Spider bite." Eventually the sore ruptured, spilling blood and puss out of the wound. After that, I finally recovered.

A month later, another sore started developing, not 1/2 inch away from the first. I went to the first doctor who again pronounced it to be a "Spider bite," Told me to keep it clean and get some rest. Needless to say, I found it dubious that a different spider would bite me just 1/2 inch away from where the first spider bit me.

I got a second opinion from a different Doctor. He too said it was a "Spider bite." I went to a third. Again, a "Spider bite." Finally I was too sick. I laid in bed for another three days with a horrible fever. Eventually the wound burst and drained, and then I got better.

It happened again 3 months later. Same area. I went to a fourth Doctor, (recommended to me by a friend.) HE said "Spider bite" also ! I had had enough. Not wanting to go through the torment that I had suffered previously, I finally decided to see an old friend who happens to be a Doctor. I would have done this in the first place, but his practice is 30 miles from where I live.

He takes one look at it and says, "You've got a staph infection. We'll need to take a sample to find out what kind it is." He took a swab of the sore, put it in a bottle and sent it off to a laboratory. He proscribed me a powerful antibiotic, and I didn't lie in bed suffering for three days.
The results from the laboratory were MRSA. methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus.

The Other four doctors just looked at it, and performed no tests. They charged me $100.00 each for their incompetence. My Doctor friend nailed it the first time he saw it. (Actually, he has nailed the Diagnosis for me on several occasions. He is a D@amned fine Doctor.)

Then they have to compensate for lawsuits and so on.
And last but not least some star surgeons collect way to much money for their services.

One of My (Other) Doctor friends tells me his Malpractice liability insurance costs him $100,000.00 per year. Also, the Federal requirements for Medicare and Medicade result in him having to hire someone full time just to handle the paperwork.

An operating room is very expensive to maintain.
Just keeping everything sterile is not cheap.
It is not just the room that costs, but the equipment in it.
Many things are use once, throw away items. They have to be. Still the price seems a bit high to me too. I could check the prices here, if you want to (might take me a while though)..

The $11,000.00 cost of the Operating room was a quote I obtained from one of the Local Hospitals when my Girl Friend (Who didn't have insurance) needed to have a cyst removed from her neck. The Doctor was willing to do the Procedure for $800.00, (in cash, $1,200.00 if by insurance.) but needed an operating room, and told me to contact the local hospital to set it up.

I went back to the Doctor, Informed his buisness agent that it was ridiculous to pay the hospital for a room at a cost of more than ten times that of the man who is doing 100% of the work. I asked them if the operation could be performed as an outpatient procedure at their clinic, and they finally decided that it could. Total cost ? $3,800.00 .

So if you were thinking that the $11,000.00 (+$800.00-$1,200.00) cost of the operating room was somehow reasonable, how do you reconcile that theory with me getting the whole thing done for $3,800.00 ?

There is a lot of B*llSh*t in the medical business. (I have plenty of other examples.)

e.g. $25.00 for aspirin

Last time I checked (a few years ago), a bottle of 100 aspirin pills cost a few dollars. It was way cheaper than here. Austrians were stocking up and taking the pills home with them. Did prices explode like that?

No. Aspirin in the stores is probably $5.00 for a bottle full. It's only Aspirin in the Hospitals that costs $25.00 per pill. One of my friends found this on the Hospital bill for his mother. It's just evidence that there is a lot of fraud in medicine.

Membership is mandatory if you choose to live in one of those communities.

True, but your selection is not that big. Sometimes you have the choice not to choose, if you understand what I mean.
I am always window- shopping for real estate in the US. It is a hobby of mine.
But true, you do somewhat have the choice here. But then I can somewhat choose where I want to live too.

Wait till your country has 40% immigrants

Uhm you have 40% minorities, we have 10% immigrants. Big difference...
I dont think that you have 40% immigrants (as in first generation).
I might be wrong though. Lots of Mexicans lately.
But then I brought that up myself, hu? I guess you are right probably.
The 40% minorities wont take us that long anymore though, at the rate the muslims here procreate.

I meant that your immigrants are the closest analogue to our minorities. Europe has become so open minded that it's brains have fallen out.

2005. The Decision was Kelo v. City of New London.

Now that would probably not happen here in Austria. I have never heard of that. People are already making no end of a fuzz when there is a new autobahn going through someones property (for which he is also very generously compensated).

The fact that it happened here only adds to the apprehension regarding an out of control government.

As i'm also fond of pointing out, if Christianity is so detrimental to science, why did science flourish only in the Christian nations for the last 500 years or so ?

Because those scientists did not give a darn about Christianity? Many of them were jews too, actually...

Since I'm British,

Ach, that explains it all, ggggg

As far as I know, the Jews have the most Nobel prizes for sciences of any one group on the planet, percentage wise. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the contributions of Jewish (and other) Scientists, but that is irrelevant to my point. My point (or theory, if you will ) is that Christianity created the conditions that made it possible for Scientists (of all types.) to work and prosper and to pursue their research. These advances took place in predominantly, unashamed Christian nations.

[Diogenes]

Because Christianity developed a society where it was permitted to not--relatively--to give a darn about Christianity.

Oh really? I must have missed that. All I can remember is people burning at the stake and having to denounce their own teachings...
Gallileo, Kepler and co will happily tell you about it.
If it was not for some brave people facing up to the church and therefore reducing its power, we would still be burning "witches" and "heretics" at the stake. Kinda reminds me of the "infidels" of the muslim world. Same difference.

I encounter this point often.

Firstly, these acts are inconsistent with the Philosophy of Christianity. They were acts taken for power and practical reasons. The Spanish and Portuguese inquisitions are generally regarded as the worst examples of these type of acts. For years, I wondered why these two countries were the most violent in suppressing heretics and dissent.

A Friend recently pointed out a possible connection. These two countries were over run by the Muslim moors. This was a similar conduct to what they had witnessed in their own past. Likewise, familiarity with Muslim ideas makes one knowledgeable to the fact that Muslims are permitted to lie to infidels. Given the cutthroatedness of the Muslim threat to Spain and Portugal, not being absolutely orthodox is a possible sign that you don't have the State's, or the Church's best interests at heart. In other words, you are a possible threat. In those days, life was too cheap. If they thought you MIGHT be a threat, they didn't take any chances. They simply killed you, and made you serve as an example to others. It was practical, but it wasn't Christian.

Secondly, The Numbers. It is my understanding that over a period of 500 years, the Inquisition managed to kill about 65,000 people. Compare that number to The Muslim faith which has killed tens of millions(Hundreds of Millions?) , or the Socialist faith which has killed possibly a 100 million. I would also point out, that unlike killing being a tenet of the Christian faith, it is indeed a tenet of the Muslim and Socialist faiths.


If you keep it in perspective, the "Christian" murders were an aberration, and not especially significant other than as an arguing point. If you compare the evil done by the Various Christian Denominations, to the good done by same, you have a very favorable ratio.

[KitemanSA]

[/quote]

But someone from a socialist country tends not to see the changes when socialistic measures are put into place, or removed, so they tend to have a limited view of the processes.

Hu? Explain that please. Why would I not see that.

Sorry, perhaps my choice of words was unclear. When socialistic measures such as profit margin limitations are placed onto otherwise free market conditions, the types of changes in effieciency I was talking about are observable. But since such measures are not placed and removed in a socialism, the changes do not happen (except perhaps at the very first).

Besides, I do observe quite a lot. I am actually associated with one of those local parties that are opposing our socialist party. So I am very much looking at alternatives with an open eye. After all I need good arguments against socialism where it does not work.

Then look deeply into all the US companies where governments intervene and you will find that theyare very inefficient. The more the government is involve, the more the infrastructure is decaying. Roads, horrible. Schools, abominable. Medicine, almost as bad. VOLUNTARY medical procedures (i.e., not insured by government regulated companies) actually amoung the best in the world, except that they are restricted to what they are PERMITTED to do by the FDA.

However, I look at the US and I see problems with the system. I am making a direct comparison and I am doing that from the POV of someone who can make the choice.

I se problems with the system too, but I try to dig beneath the obvious to the root causes.

So what is wrong with me pointing out the flaws in your current system?

Please do, but please FIRST identify the CAUSE(S) of the problems, not the symptoms. We can all observe the syptoms, but "fixing" the symptoms merely hides them, and makes the REAL problems worse.
The whole effort behind the current bills in congress are to hide the symptoms so that for a while longer, the lawyers can accumulate more money and more power. In the end, it will very probably kill the US of A.

[Skipjack]

quote="Skipjack"]Quote:
Because Christianity developed a society where it was permitted to not--relatively--to give a darn about Christianity.


Oh really? I must have missed that. All I can remember is people burning at the stake and having to denounce their own teachings...
Gallileo, Kepler and co will happily tell you about it.

Ahem, you are actually quoting TDPerk here, not me, just to make that clear. I said very much what you said a couple of posts further up.

[Skipjack]

It is a topic of discussion among various people that I know that Europe and Canada rely too heavily on the USA to defend them, rather than applying some of their tax money to their defense industry as they would necessarily do if they didn't have the USA to rely on.

The cheapest war is the war that you do not have to fight. Ever since they gave up their colonies, things have been rather peaceful for the Europeans.
All European countries do have a military, some even have nuclear weapons and delivery systems. So I would not say that Europe is negligent in the choice of their defenses. Sure we would not last long against Russia, but I dont see them attacking Europe any time soon. They are to eager to join the European union.
Other than them and the US (hey I know you all secretly hate the french), there are no real enemies that we would have to hide from.
The Chinese are too far away from us to really care and neither do we care about them enough to start a war.
The US of course is constantly fighting a war somewhere. This requires a high amount of spending for military and fighting wars also costs a lot of money.

I dont get your doctor story. On one hand you are complaining that the government makes the medical study to hard, on the other hand you are complaining about obviously badly educated and negligent doctors.
You will find this here too, but not to this extent. I have to admit though that our medical study had been to easy for a few years (they noticed it and adjusted it a bit recently).

My point (or theory, if you will ) is that Christianity created the conditions that made it possible for Scientists (of all types.) to work and prosper and to pursue their research.

What exactly did Christianity do to create this environment?
The only thing I can think of that they did is that the Christian believe lost in importance in peoples daily lives. This is again thanks to the catholic and the protestant churches which have lost all touch with their believers.
The orthodox churches of Russia and the east are a little better in this regard. "Oddly" enough they were the only ones not taking part in the witch hunts as they happened in the rest of the world...
But they are probably not the ones that you were referring to, or are they?

Firstly, these acts are inconsistent with the Philosophy of Christianity. They were acts taken for power and practical reasons. The Spanish and Portuguese inquisitions are generally regarded as the worst examples of these type of acts. For years, I wondered why these two countries were the most violent in suppressing heretics and dissent.

They were just as bad in central Europe, Germany, Austria, even Switzerland. It was the worldly empress Maria Theresia that ended the witch hunts in Austria. She and her son JosephII also were the ones to first reduce the power of the catholic church in Austria. They e.g. made sure that there was a public school system and that every child had to go to school. Before schools were mostly in the hands of the church and education was rather limited.

Oh and the 65k were only the ones burned for witchcraft. There were more killed for being heretics. That also started earlier...
It also does not take the deaths of those into account that died in the religiously motivated wars that the catholic church kindly started (thirty year war).

Compare that number to The Muslim faith which has killed tens of millions(Hundreds of Millions?) , or the Socialist faith which has killed possibly a 100 million.

I do fully agree with these two numbers. It is good to see that someone finally admits the many people that were killed by comunism. This is often denied. I liked it when Churchil wrote in his memoires that he admired Stalin for killing 18 million people. He was wrong though, it was more than 30 million...
And people still go after us for those 6 million jews... LOL, peanuts in comparison!

So if you were thinking that the $11,000.00 (+$800.00-$1,200.00) cost of the operating room was somehow reasonable,

I did say that it seemed a bit high to me.

But since such measures are not placed and removed in a socialism, the changes do not happen (except perhaps at the very first).

Our system is not static and changes do happen. What you are saying here is a very general and broad statement that is not based on facts.
E.g. we have in recent years introduced the opportunity (for some groups of professions for now) to elect a private alternative to the public option.

Roads, horrible. Schools, abominable. Medicine, almost as bad.

All these things are rather good here. Our infrastructure in general (sewage, electricity, water supply and public transportation) is better and more relyable here than it is in the US. This might be due to Austria being a smaller country though. Smaller distances make things easier. In return most of Austria is the Alps, which are very high mountains and difficult territorry. If you compare that to Texas which is mostly flat...
Also, not all public schools are bad in the US. There are many that are better than some private schools. It is again a broad statement.

You need to learn to see grey areas. You see everything in either black or white. For you there is either communism or completely free market.
I personally see plenty of grey area inbetween. I am for a very free market, hey I am an entrepreneur myself. But, there are some things that the powers of the free market are not suitable for. Companies in a free market want to do one thing and one thing only: Maximise profit.
That does not always have and ideal outcome. In regards to health insurance, e.g. I can see how having the common good in mind rather than maximized profit might be an advantage.

If it is unsustainable, it can hardly be considered a success.

Harder to sustain does not equal unsustainable. It was very sustainable for some 60 years. The large amount of low quality immigration and the lack of Austrian children are the cause for the slowly emerging problems. These things however do not mean that the system in general is bad. It is another one of your broad statements.
[/quote]

[BSPhysics]

Which side of the political fence do you think these folks reside?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFUDEmMjC-c

BS

PS - I want to believe that the video above is a parody. I don't think it is.

[Skipjack]

I dont think that you have to be on any political side to have mental issues like these people obviously have.
Here they would probably be green party voters, if they vote at all. They kinda strike me as the type that is so dumb that it does not get voting and democracy.

[Diogenes]

The cheapest war is the war that you do not have to fight. Ever since they gave up their colonies, things have been rather peaceful for the Europeans.
All European countries do have a military, some even have nuclear weapons and delivery systems. So I would not say that Europe is negligent in the choice of their defenses. Sure we would not last long against Russia, but I dont see them attacking Europe any time soon. They are to eager to join the European union.

I HOPE that mankind can forsake war. I THINK that they will not.

Perhaps once sufficient economic ties are established, there will be no more incentive for wars. People might respect established borders and customs.

Other than them and the US (hey I know you all secretly hate the french), there are no real enemies that we would have to hide from.

I/we don't hate the french. As a matter of fact, since Nicolas Sarkozy became President, a lot of Americans have a great deal more respect for France. At least Sarkozy had the balls to tell our Leading Idiot to grow up.

The question though, is whether or not Europe will continue to be an ally. Everything i'm seeing tends to indicate that Europe will be a Muslim continent in 50 years, so we may or may not have a friendly relationship with it in the future. It's ominous.

The Chinese are too far away from us to really care and neither do we care about them enough to start a war.
The US of course is constantly fighting a war somewhere. This requires a high amount of spending for military and fighting wars also costs a lot of money.

Yup, but not nearly as expensive as that bottomless pit of entitlements. I often ask people how much money can you shove into a furnace ? (As much as you want to.)

I dont get your doctor story. On one hand you are complaining that the government makes the medical study to hard, on the other hand you are complaining about obviously badly educated and negligent doctors.

It does seem contradictory, and I even thought so as I wrote it, but it does accurately describe my thinking on the subject. The Government/Academia sets the requirements for Doctors. They make the requirements grueling and onerous, which limits the supply. They also mandate treatment for people who don't pay, and require massive amounts of paperwork which also costs time and money to process. The Government also permits excessive damage awards in the case of malpractice, and does very little to actually get rid of bad Doctors.

Could relaxing the rules a bit be worse ? Maybe, but I'm thinking more Doctors and more Competition might be beneficial. Perhaps create an apprentice type Doctor? One that can't proscribe narcotics, but can proscribe Antibiotics, Anti-fungals, and Viral inhibitors ? It's an idea.

My point (or theory, if you will ) is that Christianity created the conditions that made it possible for Scientists (of all types.) to work and prosper and to pursue their research.

What exactly did Christianity do to create this environment?

They taught people a moral code that made them less likely to rape, rob and steal. It dampened down the bad things that people do to each other, and made a stronger more symbiotic society.

The only thing I can think of that they did is that the Christian believe lost in importance in peoples daily lives. This is again thanks to the catholic and the protestant churches which have lost all touch with their believers.

The Protestant Schism was the result of the perception that the Catholic Church had lost its moral way.

The orthodox churches of Russia and the east are a little better in this regard. "Oddly" enough they were the only ones not taking part in the witch hunts as they happened in the rest of the world...

They didn't get invaded by the moors. They did get invaded by the mongols, but the mongol invasion wasn't religiously motivated. It was just a power/land/tribute grab, plain and simple.

But they are probably not the ones that you were referring to, or are they?

No. I meant Orthodox in terms of Orthodoxy. The Catholic Church had/has a pretty regimented structure and orthodoxy. Deviation from it in countries that had previously been invaded by the Muslims was possibly perceived as a sign that you were possibly a dangerous threat to the Religious and Social establishment. The Catholics persecuted people other than, Jews, and Muslims. They also persecuted heretics such as the Waldensians, the Petrobrusians, the Henricians et al. None of this had to do with Christian philosophy. It had to do with protecting their power structure.

A friend (reading this message thread) just reminded me that it was the Protestant reformation that initiated the
Renaissance. He says that Catholic Dogma pretty much kept innovation suppressed. this may or may not be true. I'm not in the mood to bash the Catholic Church, I believe they did a great many good things throughout their history.

Firstly, these acts are inconsistent with the Philosophy of Christianity. They were acts taken for power and practical reasons. The Spanish and Portuguese inquisitions are generally regarded as the worst examples of these type of acts. For years, I wondered why these two countries were the most violent in suppressing heretics and dissent.

They were just as bad in central Europe, Germany, Austria, even Switzerland. It was the worldly empress Maria Theresia that ended the witch hunts in Austria. She and her son JosephII also were the ones to first reduce the power of the catholic church in Austria. They e.g. made sure that there was a public school system and that every child had to go to school. Before schools were mostly in the hands of the church and education was rather limited.

Here in the USA, many people were educated in Church ran schools till around the turn of the century.

Oh and the 65k were only the ones burned for witchcraft. There were more killed for being heretics. That also started earlier...
It also does not take the deaths of those into account that died in the religiously motivated wars that the catholic church kindly started (thirty year war).

Even adding those casualties into the mix doesn't come close to the Deaths caused by the Socialists and the Muslims.

Compare that number to The Muslim faith which has killed tens of millions(Hundreds of Millions?) , or the Socialist faith which has killed possibly a 100 million.

I do fully agree with these two numbers. It is good to see that someone finally admits the many people that were killed by comunism. This is often denied. I liked it when Churchil wrote in his memoires that he admired Stalin for killing 18 million people. He was wrong though, it was more than 30 million...

Stalin was perhaps the most Murdering b@stard in history. If you don't believe in a God, what's to stop you ?

But since such measures are not placed and removed in a socialism, the changes do not happen (except perhaps at the very first).

Our system is not static and changes do happen. What you are saying here is a very general and broad statement that is not based on facts.
E.g. we have in recent years introduced the opportunity (for some groups of professions for now) to elect a private alternative to the public option.

I don't think I wrote that.

Roads, horrible. Schools, abominable. Medicine, almost as bad.

All these things are rather good here. Our infrastructure in general (sewage, electricity, water supply and public transportation) is better and more relyable here than it is in the US. This might be due to Austria being a smaller country though. Smaller distances make things easier. In return most of Austria is the Alps, which are very high mountains and difficult territorry. If you compare that to Texas which is mostly flat...
Also, not all public schools are bad in the US. There are many that are better than some private schools. It is again a broad statement.

I don't think I wrote that either.

You need to learn to see grey areas. You see everything in either black or white. For you there is either communism or completely free market.
I personally see plenty of grey area inbetween. I am for a very free market, hey I am an entrepreneur myself. But, there are some things that the powers of the free market are not suitable for. Companies in a free market want to do one thing and one thing only: Maximise profit.
That does not always have and ideal outcome. In regards to health insurance, e.g. I can see how having the common good in mind rather than maximized profit might be an advantage.

I like to believe I have a pretty good grasp of "Greyness." I am not a libertarian. I believe the government has a proper role in maintaining a functional society. The tendency of human nature is to accrue power, even the private sector. The private sector is always trying to get itself into a position like that of the government in which it can "rent collect" and demand whatever terms it insists on. It must be regulated and kept from it's baser impulses.

If it is unsustainable, it can hardly be considered a success.

Harder to sustain does not equal unsustainable. It was very sustainable for some 60 years. The large amount of low quality immigration and the lack of Austrian children are the cause for the slowly emerging problems. These things however do not mean that the system in general is bad. It is another one of your broad statements.

Then the fault lies with those ideas and policies which assault it's sustainability. All of Europe bears the blame for not having more children. As I have pointed out elsewhere, having children has always been considered the right thing to do, as well as a duty. It makes it possible for a society to defend itself.

[Diogenes]

Which side of the political fence do you think these folks reside?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFUDEmMjC-c

BS

PS - I want to believe that the video above is a parody. I don't think it is.

They are a component of the Liberal Constituency. they are more numerous than you might imagine, and yes, they are serious.

[MSimon]

Off the top of my head, though, is it likely that the person who can't afford their cancer meds has to pay as much as they possibly can before they get any help?

When did your illness become my problem? It didn't used to be that way.

And if the government is responsible for herd maintenance what is to prevent them from cutting losses by culling the herd? i.e. restricting treatment.

Other than "it can't happen here."

http://classicalvalues.com/archives/200 ... e_man.html

Of course if your health care is my problem I'm going to want the government to crack down on all your unhealthy choices.

It is well known that those of a religious persuasion generally live longer. Not only that Christian Scientists are a very meager burden on the health care system.

You can see where I'm going with that.

[MSimon]

As far as I know, the Jews have the most Nobel prizes for sciences of any one group on the planet, percentage wise. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the contributions of Jewish (and other) Scientists, but that is irrelevant to my point. My point (or theory, if you will ) is that Christianity created the conditions that made it possible for Scientists (of all types.) to work and prosper and to pursue their research. These advances took place in predominantly, unashamed Christian nations.

Science in the land of Christianity did not take off until the fragmentation of the Church. i.e. post Reformation.

[MSimon]

Stalin was perhaps the most Murdering b@stard in history. If you don't believe in a God, what's to stop you ?

It is bad for business.