A Green Wants to Reduce the Numbr of Humans on Earth

[djolds1]

Like most older societies, the Greeks were more or less constantly at war. Likely the first thing they would do is build better weapons and conquer their neighbors. Their democracy would probably not become as liberal as ours until living standards had vastly improved.

It never would've become like ours. The mindset of Antiquity was very "localist." Note that Roman citizens under the Empire were deemed "Citizens of the CITY of Rome." The mindset of Antiquity didn't generalize to broad territories well. That's a primary reason that Plato cited 10,000 as the optimum number of citizens for a polity. A focus on the local and SMALL.

Mass scale democracy just doesn't fit into that mindset. Democracy such as there was was all direct democracy. A slightly larger scale version of the New England town meeting.

[djolds1]

A couple hundred years? Maybe, if the disaster was external and not sociological. Rome had a lot of knowledge and technology, and if the monks hadn't preserved it (and expanded on it), Europe would have taken a lot longer than it did to re-emerge from barbarism...

The Romans had knowledge and technology. They chose not to use it. Better to keep the population employed and quiescent than to push the bounds to their farthest possible extreme, in the opinion of the rulers.

A common attitude. The human animal is conservative and distrustful of change by nature.

[djolds1]

Of course, what really changed things was the Enlightenment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_enlightenment

Disagree. What really changed things was the Renaissance and early Scientific Revolution (which predate the Enlightenment by 200-400 years). The Renaissance (or as far back as the Gothic) shows the early Western arts, which define the mindset of the civilization, how it looks at things. The Scientific Revolution was the beginning of the West's distinct and original approach to the nature of the physical universe.

The Enlightenment is a philosophical approach that expands on the themes of individual autonomy evident as far back as the Gothic. The political conflict and independence caused by the West's separation of Church and State created the West's uniquely individualist perspective even during the Middle Ages. There was no Central Emperor who was also Quasi-Pope, but many Kings in conflict with the Pope. Not satraps in strong subordination to a Sultan (or Byzantine Emperor), but Barons largely independent from and in competition with the local King.

The Enlightenment is elaboration, not fundamental.

[djolds1]

I'm not sure Japan is especially grateful for having a couple of nukes thrown at it..

Japan should be very greatful that something finally pushed Hirohito to fall on his metaphorical sword and defy the Generals. Had he not, Bull Halsey would've been proven correct, and Japanese today would be a language spoken only in hell.

No way was the US/UK/ANZAC/USSR going to eat the loss rate seen on Okinawa. Had Manhattan District Engineering not worked, Chembio weapons, napalm uber alles, and every other automated man-light version of mass slaughter weapon that could've been dreamed up would've been used. The Japanese as a people would be extinct today. Some genes surviving, but the culture entirely dead.

Looking at China, they do appear to be doing things the right way, and have been for many years compared with our young countries elsewhere, I just hope they don't get too caught up with our approach and copy any of the bad stuff.

China isn't young. It is very, very old. But unlike Islam, China and India are capable of adapting to and successfully integrating the requirements of technoscientific society.

That does not of necessity include mass scale participatory republics.

As a country that no longer has the capacity to feed itself, cloth itself, and has been living well beyond its real economic means that now our entire wealth generation is based on borrowing (stealing?) every penny from elsewhere in the world, I'm not sure how long we can survive before we desend into darkness.

The creative phase of Western Kultur is coming to an end. The static & curatorial phase of Zivilization is slowly setting in for us. The West from 1700-1990 was roughly analogous to the Hellenistic phase of Antiquity or the Warring States period of China. The top rate contenders fight it out, and eventually one wins as the core around which the civilization solidifies. Endgame.

The Empire of Zivilization is stable and relatively just. But it is not creative.

[djolds1]

My point is that some of my politics may parallel yours, but you have an incumbent president who practically stole an election.

Not really. The system is set up as an electoral college. The Founders didn't trust the people and set up a system one step removed. It won't change, as it gives additional power to the smaller States.

Gore asked for a recount. The recount went to Bush. The (Heavily Democratic) State Supreme Court stepped in and tried to keep recounting going until the "right" result popped out. The SCOTUS stepped in and properly shut things down since the process had been properly carried out. And note that Our Glorious Shrub was reelected in 2004.

Has gone out on a whim and has mocked the voice and will of the people by Instigating a war,

In the aftermath of 911 the American population was willing to give Shrub a freebie. He wasted it on Iraq. Idiot, but not a defiance of the will of the people. He faced reelection in 2004 during bad times in Iraq, and won. The voice of the people spoke.

But he's still an idiot.

introducing wide sweeping laws such as the patriot act eroding peoples liberties,

The Patriot Act had been a Justice Department/FBI wish list since 1990. And in the aftermath of 911, something of the type was inevitable.

There seems to be general consensus on the net (like poeple from the 9th circuit on slashdot.org) that the Fourth Amendment just doesnt apply anymore. How long before the Fourteenth Amendment bites the dust ?

The 9th Circuit is the most liberal and most often reversed Appellate Circuit in the US. Take pronouncements from its partisans with a salt mine's worth of salt.

So 20 bucks, bad things happening in Bejing ............anyone ?

Doubt it. Chinese security services are not nearly as restrained by public opinion and liberal political systems as is true in Europe and even moreso in the US. Any substantial threats will receive pills (9mm slugs) to the base of the neck in short order.

[MSimon]

dj,

I agree with your points except one. Iraq.

I don't believe it is/was a mistake.

Using it as a lever to change the culture of the Middle East (a very long process to be sure) is working.

Saudi Arabia is (very very slowly) liberalizing. Women will soon be able to operate autos without a male relative in the car. The Emirates are liberalizing faster.

It may not work in the long run. I still think it was worth a shot (or an Army as the case may be).

[TallDave]

The creative phase of Western Kultur is coming to an end. The static & curatorial phase of Zivilization is slowly setting in for us.

Quite the opposite. We are seeing more innovation and dynamisn now than ever before. Plus, with 2 billion Asians joining Western Civ, the base of innovation keeps getting bigger, as does the potential market for innovations.

[Nanos]

> Saudi Arabia is (very very slowly) liberalizing. Women will soon be
> able to operate autos without a male relative in the car.
> The Emirates are liberalizing faster.

Wasn't Iraq well ahead of the curve there before the invasion in womens rights, and has now gone backwards by a large margin...

Its almost as if we know its a bad thing to give women rights..


The button machine is a good example, lets say the company instead of firing the workers, is owned by the workers, they receive higher wages for less hours worked, everyones a winner.. (This is the approach I'm looking to impliment in my towns when I build them, so we have wages for low work hours.)

But, if the company is not owned by the workers, the workers are fired, and the owner (shareholder..) alone benefits..

Yes the consumer gets lower prices.

But... consumers are people with jobs...

Those people you just fired, well, they cannot afford now to buy buttons..

In the UK you can now very plainly see the effect in towns all across the country, endless numbers of people without a job. (I think offically half our country is unemployed..)

[MSimon]

The results so far in Iraq are mixed.

The economic situation re: business formation is greatly improved. Social strictures have gone backwards some.

Self government with no outside impositions (like Japan) does that sometimes.

As long as the economics keep improving eventually women's lot will improve. Economics is the key to everything. Which is why authoritarians that America has supported generally leave behind working self government. Syngman Rhee of South Korea, Pinochet of Chile, and the Kuomintang of Taiwan have generally done a good job.

They provided stable conditions that allowed economic advance. Self government eventually followed. Ugly but effective. China is taking that path IMO.

[Nanos]

> Economics is the key to everything

I would say we agree on that

How to share up the pie afterwards we may have differing thoughts on.


I have trouble getting through to greens that I reckon if we can tie economics with green, that it will be a winner, but so many of them are anti-business.

I suggest here;

http://www.foe.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5452.0.html

> As for the field, why not build all the offices to an earth sheltered
> design, underground out of site, stick the wind turbine on top and
> that way you can keep your field, get your energy and have
> office space!

[MSimon]

nanos,

I have the perfect solution. We pay people to produce as little as possible. That will require every one to work and we will all be rich.

For instance I think eliminating all agricultural technology later than that available in 1800 would be ideal.

==

Now tell me where my thinking went wrong?

==

The key as always is to be of service to your fellow man. You will not be doing tomorrow what you did yesterday.

The button makers may be worse off. Every oner who uses buttons will be much better off.

Simon

[djolds1]

The results so far in Iraq are mixed.

Four years to admit that there was a continuity war ongoing and that strategy needed to shift over to counter-insurgency. The Shrubies are Keystone Kops led by an idiot. And the depressing thing? They're still better choices than either Gore or Mr. Teresa Heinz.

Lincoln sold a war when we were losing 100,000+ soldiers. FDR sold WW2 during the dark days of 1942. It can be done, but all these morons are capable of is doing deer- staring- into- the- headlights impersonations while chanting a "stay the course" mantra.

The economic situation re: business formation is greatly improved. Social strictures have gone backwards some.

Political progress during the surge has been from the ground up, not from the top down via our installed central government. More likely to hold.

As long as the economics keep improving eventually women's lot will improve. Economics is the key to everything. Which is why authoritarians that America has supported generally leave behind working self government. Syngman Rhee of South Korea, Pinochet of Chile, and the Kuomintang of Taiwan have generally done a good job.

Too Marxist, and too optimistic. Economics is not the be all end all of a functional society. You need the civil society underpinnings as well, and two factors in Islamic regions make civil society difficult.

1) the Clan basis of society;

2) the seamless integration of religion into civil law. The two are one and the same.

With those factors, the other bits of Western capitalist financial practice just don't "catch" quite right. Note how even Turkey needs to keep strong active intervention and pressure constantly in place to hold the Turks to a relatively secular path.

[djolds1]

The creative phase of Western Kultur is coming to an end. The static & curatorial phase of Zivilization is slowly setting in for us.

Quite the opposite. We are seeing more innovation and dynamism now than ever before. Plus, with 2 billion Asians joining Western Civ, the base of innovation keeps getting bigger, as does the potential market for innovations.

East Asia isn't joining the West, it's adopting the tools of the West. Saying that China is joining the West is like saying the Greeks were Egyptian because they adopted some Egyptian tools and technologies. What we've seen since 1980 or so has been the abandonment of attempts to Westernize. Much like the Japanese, most other civilizations are now trying to integrate selected parts of the Western method while not going whole hog into becoming culturally Western.

Innovation isn't a matter of markets, at maturity all markets do is cycle regularly through styles, not innovate. Scientific and artistic innovation is a matter of fully exploring the potentials of the worldview driving the perceptions of the scientists involved. And the potentials of the Western perspective are coming towards a close. Its not done yet, several triumphs yet remain no doubt, but the end is in sight.

What interests me is trying to see what questions will remain unanswered after the "final" forms of Western thought solidify. What tools (word problems vs algebra) are hidden in the wings that might allow vastly different perspectives and abilities in the West's successor? What is the form and character of the follow-on that will take up the challenge of science and technology yet again, and push it to even further heights?

[MSimon]

dj,

You are forgetting your history. Wars are always run stupidly.

Winning long wars depends on two things:

1. Bottom
2. Ability to adapt faster than the enemy

We started in Iraq with an experience deficit. The only way to overcome that is experience. At all levels.

BTW the disasters of 2004, 05, and 06 prepared the way for the success of 07. The Iraqi people got a hard taste of their "saviors" and decided the Americans were the lesser evil.

There is no way Iraqis could have learned that lesson without our incompetence. I'm not saying it was deliberate. I'm say is we have taken advantage of our mistakes. That is superior generalship. What we had until 2007 was average generalship - no win but no loss.

It has taken a while but we have found our Grant. Or look at WW2. Kasserine, Anzio, etc. These things take time.

[MSimon]

dj,

Turkey is no economic powerhouse.

Money is the lubricant that dissolves tribes. Think of how hard it was to marry outside your tribe in America of 1900. Think of how easy it is now.

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