No, it was a bipartisan issue with both sides voting for it equally. In fact exactly equally! There were 13 voting against it. 6 republicans, 6 democrats and 1 independent. There was one independent voting for it as well. So it is exactly equal.
I have yet to see anyone presenting it as a left versus right issue. All the people I talk to, from all political spectrums are equally apalled by this treason of their elected representatives on the people. Yes, I call this treason. It is only yet another example of the sell out that our politicians in the US and here in Europe have been comitting of the hard working people to the big corporations and the banks.
And the plot thickens:
http://www.dailypaul.com/194748/anonymo ... ob-portman
Oh and the effect is quite interesting: Many lefties that I know suddenly consider Ron Paul electable. So dont make this a "left versus right" issue. it is not. It is a people versus corrupt government issue. That is what it is.
What do libertarians have to say about this?
Maybe you all should review this:
https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETINT ... icetti.pdf
Pages around 115 give a good foundation for why and how we have it, and intent. Then take a look at section V. starting on 127.
My point regarding the current legislation, it is all redundant arguments for the consumption of the public. It has all been argued before.
I cna show you sites and forums where folks are trying to point fingers and make it partisan by blaming "the other guys". In the end the whole thing is silly redundant if you actually look into Posse Comitatus and other legislation as well as the Constitution itself.
Those who think that the military can not be used inside the country are wrong. They are confusing personal ideals with reality. There are plenty of times the military has acted inside the country to include George Washington himself leading the army against citizens refusing to pay Whiskey taxes in 1794.
https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETINT ... icetti.pdf
Pages around 115 give a good foundation for why and how we have it, and intent. Then take a look at section V. starting on 127.
My point regarding the current legislation, it is all redundant arguments for the consumption of the public. It has all been argued before.
I cna show you sites and forums where folks are trying to point fingers and make it partisan by blaming "the other guys". In the end the whole thing is silly redundant if you actually look into Posse Comitatus and other legislation as well as the Constitution itself.
Those who think that the military can not be used inside the country are wrong. They are confusing personal ideals with reality. There are plenty of times the military has acted inside the country to include George Washington himself leading the army against citizens refusing to pay Whiskey taxes in 1794.
It seems you don't disagree that the law applies to US citizens, only that it has changed the status quo.
However, I think it does change the status quo in the specific elimination of due process to those to which it applies. Thus if it applies to US citizens then it eliminates due process for US citizens, which I believe clearly violates the constitution. Whether or not the US government can, or has, already conduct this behavior is irrelevant to that point.
However, I think it does change the status quo in the specific elimination of due process to those to which it applies. Thus if it applies to US citizens then it eliminates due process for US citizens, which I believe clearly violates the constitution. Whether or not the US government can, or has, already conduct this behavior is irrelevant to that point.
Carter
Yes I have concerns regarding Habeus Corpus. But I do not think that it will actually be an issue, as I do not think it has been in the past.
If it is an issue for Habeus Corpus, then the Court system will have no compunctions on correcting it.
I do reccomend that you give the entire article I linked a read. I think you will find it very educational. They did a good job on the research.
If it is an issue for Habeus Corpus, then the Court system will have no compunctions on correcting it.
I do reccomend that you give the entire article I linked a read. I think you will find it very educational. They did a good job on the research.
You are detracting from the actual issue here by discussing a side issue (the military having the right to act as law enforcement... under certain conditions). The main issue is the indefinite detention of US citizens without a fair trial and what is called due process.
That is the main issue. They cant even confront their accuser. It is a very slippery slope that started with the not so patriotic patriot act and is now getting worse. If things keep going that way, you will soon have a whole lot of people in Gitmo and the 55 simillar facilities, because their neighbours reported them as terrorists due to them not mowing their lawn once a week.
With the DHS going into schools now and asking the kids to report suspicious behaviour (reminds me of a scene from the movie "to be or not to be"), that number will increase even more. In addition to this, they have now closed down the department of civil rights at the FBI that was responsible for following up on complaints against the DHS and the TSA. This is now handled by the DHS itself (not sure that is such a good idea). All of this makes people very worried, including people that I know that work for law enforcement agencies and even the Pentagon. Really, nobody in the government, other than the politicians that made and signed the law thinks that this is a good idea. I can totally see why. I cant understand how some people, like ladajo, can keep defending this.
Heck even people at Fox news find this reason for worry and they will normally agree to everything that the republicans in government do...
Interestingly CNN has been completely quiet about it and some of the Obama goons keep downplaying the issue and spreading missinformation.
E.g. some keep claiming that US citizens are excempt, which is NOT true. It is just not required for them. That does not mean that it cant apply to them.
That is the main issue. They cant even confront their accuser. It is a very slippery slope that started with the not so patriotic patriot act and is now getting worse. If things keep going that way, you will soon have a whole lot of people in Gitmo and the 55 simillar facilities, because their neighbours reported them as terrorists due to them not mowing their lawn once a week.
With the DHS going into schools now and asking the kids to report suspicious behaviour (reminds me of a scene from the movie "to be or not to be"), that number will increase even more. In addition to this, they have now closed down the department of civil rights at the FBI that was responsible for following up on complaints against the DHS and the TSA. This is now handled by the DHS itself (not sure that is such a good idea). All of this makes people very worried, including people that I know that work for law enforcement agencies and even the Pentagon. Really, nobody in the government, other than the politicians that made and signed the law thinks that this is a good idea. I can totally see why. I cant understand how some people, like ladajo, can keep defending this.
Heck even people at Fox news find this reason for worry and they will normally agree to everything that the republicans in government do...
Interestingly CNN has been completely quiet about it and some of the Obama goons keep downplaying the issue and spreading missinformation.
E.g. some keep claiming that US citizens are excempt, which is NOT true. It is just not required for them. That does not mean that it cant apply to them.
I am not defending it. I am saying it is pretty much a non-issue. The only issue I see is Habeus Corpus, and that has no chance of failure in my opinion. Besides, in regard to Habeus Corpus, you only have to produce folks who you know who they are. If you do not know who they are, you do not have to produce them, you can retain them "in the care of the state". That should scare the crap out of you.
This is one of the primary dilemmas in US Civil Rights and Law Enforcement. Proper identity and requirement thereof. Think about that before you start to really worry about the more or less non issue of the NDAA clause.
This is one of the primary dilemmas in US Civil Rights and Law Enforcement. Proper identity and requirement thereof. Think about that before you start to really worry about the more or less non issue of the NDAA clause.
D says:
The funniest thing was when I couldn't get anyone else to listen. Excepting my blog mates and a few of our regular readers.
He is/was an out and out communist. Ah. Well.
Yep. I started doing intensive research on him in Feb of '08 when he started to surge. By the end of the month I had a dossier.He is the stupidest and most disloyal "Precedent" this nation has ever had. He is the poster child for why affirmative action and foreign influence is a bad idea. His loyalty and his entire world view are tainted with un-American ideas, He is thuggish and corrupt, and he has steered this nation into a perfect storm of vile corruption.
He is a an ignorant and vicious fool, and I wonder if he is even an American at all.
The funniest thing was when I couldn't get anyone else to listen. Excepting my blog mates and a few of our regular readers.
He is/was an out and out communist. Ah. Well.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
ladajo wrote:Maybe you all should review this:
https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETINT ... icetti.pdf
Pages around 115 give a good foundation for why and how we have it, and intent. Then take a look at section V. starting on 127.
My point regarding the current legislation, it is all redundant arguments for the consumption of the public. It has all been argued before.
I cna show you sites and forums where folks are trying to point fingers and make it partisan by blaming "the other guys". In the end the whole thing is silly redundant if you actually look into Posse Comitatus and other legislation as well as the Constitution itself.
Those who think that the military can not be used inside the country are wrong. They are confusing personal ideals with reality. There are plenty of times the military has acted inside the country to include George Washington himself leading the army against citizens refusing to pay Whiskey taxes in 1794.
People often speak of Posse Comitatus as though it were a bar to abuse. I have always regarded it as having the strength of tissue paper. The government WILL use the military to enforce it's dictates should it ever feel it is needed. Anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —
— Lord Melbourne —
ladajo wrote:Yes I have concerns regarding Habeus Corpus. But I do not think that it will actually be an issue, as I do not think it has been in the past.
If it is an issue for Habeus Corpus, then the Court system will have no compunctions on correcting it.
I do reccomend that you give the entire article I linked a read. I think you will find it very educational. They did a good job on the research.
Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus. The next dictator will do so as well.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —
— Lord Melbourne —
He is a Democrat. They are all communists to one degree or another. (though they may not realize it.)MSimon wrote:D says:
Yep. I started doing intensive research on him in Feb of '08 when he started to surge. By the end of the month I had a dossier.He is the stupidest and most disloyal "Precedent" this nation has ever had. He is the poster child for why affirmative action and foreign influence is a bad idea. His loyalty and his entire world view are tainted with un-American ideas, He is thuggish and corrupt, and he has steered this nation into a perfect storm of vile corruption.
He is a an ignorant and vicious fool, and I wonder if he is even an American at all.
The funniest thing was when I couldn't get anyone else to listen. Excepting my blog mates and a few of our regular readers.
He is/was an out and out communist. Ah. Well.
The question is, is he an American at all? I don't even know.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —
— Lord Melbourne —
Not true. The precedent was the Drug War. That was the template. And because drug hate was so easy to gin up no one (of any significance) complained. Anything to beat drugs. There are even a fair number who still think like that around here.It is a very slippery slope that started with the not so patriotic patriot act
Franklin had it right even if he did not actually use these words:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
And I might add that they will not get either.
All that is happening is an effort to make everyone equal to dopers under the law. i.e. informants need not be present in court. Which then gives police carte blanche to come up with notional informants to make everything kosher.
It is very unwise to let your personal hates to take over your politics. Your hate will be normalized and then used against you. There is a reason hate is a deadly sin.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
D,
He is an actual communist. Look up who supported him for the State Senate races.
http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives ... or_is.html
He is an actual communist. Look up who supported him for the State Senate races.
http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives ... or_is.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
That gives you some organization names to work with for further searches.MSimon wrote:D,
He is an actual communist. Look up who supported him for the State Senate races.
http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives ... or_is.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.