WB-8 Coming

[TallDave]

Stronger magnets for the same physical size machine and operating currents mean smaller, less spherical wiffle-balls.

I don't know about this. The machine's operational state is beta=1, so if the current is the same, the current gets to build up pressure longer before electron pressure = B field. But I'm not 100% sure if the new equilibrium is reached in the same volume.

Anyways, I would guess Rick and the team have a much more, er, nuanced understanding of transport issues than any of us.

Can't wait to hear what they find. Who wants to guess when we'll start to hear about WB-8 results?

[D Tibbets]

Keep in mind that R. Nebel mentioned that the nubs- interconnects between the magnets was a dominate(?) loss mechanism in the WB7. A new design may or may not have other changes, but modifications to the nubs may be the priority... or not...

Also, as discussed prevously, making the minor radius of the magnetic coils larger would presumably allow more amp turns, allowing disproportionate increases in the magetic field strength vs overall size with copper windings.

There are so many permutations in the size, magnet planer and curving shapes, drive energies, magnet strengths, magnet numbers, magnet types, fuel feeds, fuel types and mixtures, interconnects, external structure, energy recovery mechanisms, pumps, etc. that research could putter along for 20 years befor most of the variables were understood (well enough) and optamised. And that assumes it works. Spending 2 million per year for twenty years would consume ~ 10 million just for the personel and overhead costs of a modest effort like the current one. An order of magnitude (or more) increase in funding is needed, if indeed there is a commitment to persueing this technology even at these subscale levels.


Dan Tibbets

[kraisee]

Rick said they wanted to get confinement from okay to good, and confirm scaling.

So what chance is there that this might provide sufficient budget to try to address both issues, not just one or the other?

To confirm the scaling, couldn't Dr. Nebel increase in size by something like 33% or 50%? That would surely be sufficient to confirm the scaling? To a lay-person, that seems like a fairly cost-effective approach if you've already got permission to build a new device, no?


And a quick question... Would the dodecahedral design do anything to help improve the confinement?

-Ross.

[KitemanSA]

Better sphericity may also lead to better confinement, making ok into good. I hope we get some idea what the WB8 actually is before the end of this contract!

[TallDave]

That would surely be sufficient to confirm the scaling?

You'd think so, but it might scale one way at 50% larger/stronger but quite differently at 10X larger/stronger. Tokamaks ran into huge problems trying to predict transport loss scaling as a function of size.

Would the dodecahedral design do anything to help improve the confinement?

It should. In Valencia, Bussard states it will improve "performance" by 3-5x. I assume this refers in some fashion to losses.

The only small scale machine work remaining, which can
yet give further improvements in performance, is test of one
or two WB-6-scale devices but with “square“ or polygonal
coils aligned approximately (but slightly offset on the main
faces) along the edges of the vertices of the polyhedron. If
this is built around a truncated dodecahedron, near-optimum
performance is expected; about 3-5 times better than WB-6.

[Josh Cryer]

Any word on whether or not Chu had a hand in this? He showed awareness in Polywell and it could have been him or at least one of their higher ups who got attention given to it.

And MSimon, it could at least call for a less antagonistic sigline (especially since you had no such sigline during Bush's final reign). Maybe "Polywell ( WB-8 ) was funded by the Obama administration, why don't they fund it completely?"

[MSimon]

Any word on whether or not Chu had a hand in this? He showed awareness in Polywell and it could have been him or at least one of their higher ups who got attention given to it.

And MSimon, it could at least call for a less antagonistic sigline (especially since you had no such sigline during Bush's final reign). Maybe "Polywell ( WB-8 ) was funded by the Obama administration, why don't they fund it completely?"

Mr. Obama is supposed to be the epitome of wonderful goodness. Bush had no such pretensions.

And besides. Bush is no longer President. In addition I had some contacts inside the Bush admin. I worked hem hard. McCain was personally aware of Polywell - so I had some hopes until the election. I don't have any but second hand contacts in the Obama admin.

Plus this: out of the $787 billion in bail out money only $400 million went to research. Pitiful.

If Obama was to commit to full up funding of Polywell to speed development I'd change my sig back to the old one. In the mean time I intend to goad him. I spent a lot of time in Chicago and they know how the game is played. Alinsky Rules. Or alternately: "politics ain't bean bag".

[KitemanSA]

Any word on whether or not Chu had a hand in this?

Probably not. This came directly out of DoD. If Chu has any influence, EMC2 will get one of the ARPA-E FOA grants for ~$25M over the next 5 years.
Which may actually be a BAD thing since what should happen is that in ~1.5 years there should be FULL funding, not 1/10th level funding.

[Roger]

One thing I wanna know first, has the WB-7.1 work/tests been completed?

My fingers are crossed for some kind of continuous-operation machine.

My guess is stronger magnets.

I think its either that or scaling....
http://iecfusiontech.blogspot.com/2009/ ... works.html

Still cu, though, you think? Or will they chop up an MRI?

I guess the B scaling is relatively important in terms of the various factors. It would make sense as a factor to vary.

3 things we all wanna see: 1) Longer runs 2) More power. 3) Scaling

From my POV, either one slightly larger Cu (perhaps chilled Cu) or two same scale Cu systems.

Kiteman I think you've just about got it.
Dr Nebel recently said we can expect 2 more DD machines, IIRC. SO what sort of options does that lead to?

This is my favorite.
1)Same size, cooled/MRI. Jacked up 350 Turbo.
2)2x size/scaling.

What 2 DD machines do you think Dr Nebel will be building next?

[IntLibber]

I expect to see the nurbs between toruses made into tapering necks to eliminate any sharp angles that are the source of the electron absorption issues.

[Roger]

I wish to see the nurbs between toruses made into tapering necks to eliminate any sharp angles that are the source of the electron absorption issues.

If WB-7.1 is now complete then you've received your wish, if its not complete, then the work to do so is ongoing.

[MSimon]

I expect to see the nurbs between toruses made into tapering necks to eliminate any sharp angles that are the source of the electron absorption issues.

Another possibility is eliminating the nubs altogether by going to supports for all coils similar to the bottom supports.

The thing is. We know so little about WB-7 that it is hard to estimate where WB-8 is headed. For instance: are they going to a new vacuum tank or re-using the WB-7 tank?

Now I understand the need for secrecy. About the only thing EMC2 has going for it now that the original patents have run out is trade secrets. And even those are hard to keep for a mechanical device once it goes into production.

Manufacturing excellence is their main line for long term survival. Or selling out to one of the biggies. IMO. Or they could wind up like Farnsworth. All the credit, none of the cash. Which in the long run (we are all dead) is not too bad.

[KitemanSA]

I expect to see the nurbs between toruses made into tapering necks to eliminate any sharp angles that are the source of the electron absorption issues.

Another possibility is eliminating the nubs altogether by going to supports for all coils similar to the bottom supports.

And yet another option is to eliminate the "nubs" by creating a real/real magnet system with holey X cusps.

From the views I have seen of the vacuum chamber, I suspect they could get a 1.5x to 2x WB7 scale unit in it without too much difficulty.

[MSimon]

I expect to see the nurbs between toruses made into tapering necks to eliminate any sharp angles that are the source of the electron absorption issues.

Another possibility is eliminating the nubs altogether by going to supports for all coils similar to the bottom supports.

And yet another option is to eliminate the "nubs" by creating a real/real magnet system with holey X cusps.

From the views I have seen of the vacuum chamber, I suspect they could get a 1.5x to 2x WB7 scale unit in it without too much difficulty.

Good idea. Except that you would need some kind of custom manufacturing setup of considerable complexity to wind and impregnate the coils. Even square plan coils are going to (most likely) require several iterations to get it right. That is the beauty of MRI coils. They are already in production.

[KitemanSA]

Good idea. Except that you would need some kind of custom manufacturing setup of considerable complexity to wind and impregnate the coils. Even square plan coils are going to (most likely) require several iterations to get it right. That is the beauty of MRI coils. They are already in production.

Not so difficult. Winding the two types of magnets (squares and triangles) is easy. Going with bow-legged squares and triangles vice straight legged would be mostly a wash in the winding. Soldering on the casing would be the hardest part, and that shouldn't be too difficult for an accomplished solderer.

If you want to do LN cooled, we probably would be best served by going with the modified MPG winding method discussed in other posts. That would start getting complex, but I think it would still be doable. Again, the casing would be the hardest part.