Socialism As Socialism Does

[Skipjack]

Ah, right. Now I understand your logic. And as they have annected Poland, they had immediate right to attack Russia, because large parts of Russia were parts of Poland in the past, so naturally they now belonged to Germany, right?

Read up on Danzig and the Danzig corridor. That was the problem between Germany and Poland and the reason for the war.

They only started to "suffer" when Hitler came to power and initiated something you would today call terrorist movement in german minority.

WHAT?!!!
Holy crap, they learn a lot of shit today!

Otherwise, there have been German parties in Czechoslovakia and they had theirs representatives in parliament. Yes, Germans were minority, there were territories where they formed majority, but generally, I am relly not sure what suffering do you refer too. How many dead or tortured germans were there before 1938? Any facts?

One word: Sudetenland
Read up on it on Wikipedia!

I see you just believe Nazi propaganda.

ROFL, see my earlier post above, please.
My grandmother was not a Nazi...
Anyway, I see you believe a lot of socialist propaganda.

Austrian empire was multinational country. Bohemian kingdom was part of it for about 400 years. As was Slovenia, Hungary, Serbia etc etc.... So what? Did that gave right to Hitler to occuppy all teritories of former Austria empire?

Again, read up on Sudetenland. They were called Sudetengermans for a reason you know?

Please note that he actually have taken them before WWII.

Ok, he took them (brievely), lost them, then retook them after WW2. Happy now?
In any case, they were quite happy when the "Soviet liberators" were expelled by the Nazis (though the Nazis were not much better).
They were also very happy when the Soviet liberators finally left in the 80ies.
Anyway, the point was that Stalin was already well occupied with conquering much of Europe. Do you think he would have stopped? Especially with the huge amount of equipment that he had?

Everybody was building large army...

As I said, until well into the war the German tanks were mostly light tanks. The PzKW1 and PzKW2 were light and very light tanks with very small guns (the PzKW1 only had a machine gun). The PzKW3 was a medium light tank. The PzKW4 was a medium tank.
The serial production of the latter two did not start until well into 1940. Not really what you would do if you were planning to take all of Europe and Russia. The Russians on the other hand... They had thousands of medium to heavy tanks already built and some of them rolling into Finland. The Russians used 1500 tanks in their initial attack against Finland.
The Germans had about 2000 tanks total at this time of the war (and all just light tanks).
Does not seem very reasonable to take over the world with a bunch of toy- tanks.
It is also worth mentioning that most of the Russian tanks, even the early models used the Christie- drive.
Geee, I wonder how they got that...

Well, I might agree with this. Still, Hitler's actions in the end lead to to half of europe in Soviet hands.

Half of Europe is better than whole of Europe.

OK, in Austria there were not very careful too. After all, Soviet hate propaganda worked against all germans.

Baltic countries. Horrible atrocities. Ukraine, terrible. The aforementioned Kosakes, etc. Deportation and killing of jewish people whereever they came (nobody know how many jewish deaths that were later attributed to the Germans by the socialists, were actually commited by the Soviets.
They massmurdered pretty much anywhere they went.

True again. To be fair, Stalin had 30 years to perform his crimes, about twice as much as Hitler....

He killed a lot more than twice as many people though, many of them in his own country.

Well, maybe not every day, but it is well known fact.

Glad you acknowledge that.
I personally did not hear as much of it as I would like to. The socialists are covering up pretty well, at least here.

[Diogenes]

What is funny is that this (and large distances) likely saved Russians. It is one thing to perform blitzkrieg in France, where you can move your tanks quickly, it is another thing to do it in Russia, where you get stuck in mud.

True. Hitler had no choice though. He was insane, but not that dumb. He would not have attacked Russia had he had another choice.

There's another possibility. Years ago I saw a documentary called "High Hitler".It was about the notion that Hitler was using methamphetamines, and the more heavily addicted he became to the drug, the more paranoid and insane his behavior became.

It makes a pretty good case. Till evidence emerges which demonstrate the theory to be false, i'm going to regard it as highly plausible.

[Skipjack]

It makes a pretty good case. Till evidence emerges which demonstrate the theory to be false, i'm going to regard it as highly plausible.

Churchill was a drug addict. So Hitler could have been one too. The attack on Russia was still a preemptive strike though. The evidence is all there. You know, while the west still has not opened any of the WW2 archives to the public yet, the Russians did open some of their archives (still not all of them) after the cold war. You can read a lot of these things up in there. Of course nobody talks about this. The socialists are trying really hard to keep these things under wrapps.
It is also funny that everybody declared war on Hitler for invading Poland, but not on the Soviets for doing the same thing.
There is a lot more to this story than what meets the eye.

[Luzr]

One word: Sudetenland
Read up on it on Wikipedia!

Did you?

"By 1929 only a small number of Sudeten German deputies, most of them members of the German National Party (propertied classes) and the Sudeten German National Socialist Party (Sudetendeutsche nationalsozialistische Partei), remained in opposition to the Czech government."

I do not say everything was ideal, but it was not a cause to start the war. Compared to what later Nazis done to any country they invaded (and in fact, to Germany and Sudetenland), Sudetenland was heaven.

Please note that he actually have taken them before WWII.

Ok, he took them (brievely), lost them, then retook them after WW2. Happy now?
In any case, they were quite happy when the "Soviet liberators" were expelled by the Nazis (though the Nazis were not much better).
They were also very happy when the Soviet liberators finally left in the 80ies.
Anyway, the point was that Stalin was already well occupied with conquering much of Europe. Do you think he would have stopped?

Probably not. But without Hitler, he would never succeeded. Hitler forced west to ally with Stalin and then lost the war with him.

Especially with the huge amount of equipment that he had?

Not really what you would do if you were planning to take all of Europe and Russia. The Russians on the other hand... They had thousands of medium to heavy tanks already built and some of them rolling into Finland. The Russians used 1500 tanks in their initial attack against Finland.

Ah, nice you are starting to study. In the begining, you have claimed that all tanks Russians had were from Roosvelt. That was something I could not let uncommented.

It is also worth mentioning that most of the Russian tanks, even the early models used the Christie- drive.
Geee, I wonder how they got that...

Maybe from Roosvelt? (just joking).

Well, I might agree with this. Still, Hitler's actions in the end lead to to half of europe in Soviet hands.

Half of Europe is better than whole of Europe.

Stalin would not be able to conquer europe. All western powers united would be able to stop him. Besides, Soviet war machinery only started to work well only after having been pushed to nearly defeat. If Stalin were the attacker, I would say they would stop at first sign of problems. See what happened in Finland.

[Skipjack]

Maybe from Roosvelt?

Probably. Some powers in the US actively supported Stalin. Roosevelt was rallying against the Germans and for Stalin.
Isnt it odd that everyone declared war on Hitler for invading Poland, but nobody declared war on Stalin for doing the very same thing?

Probably not. But without Hitler, he would never succeeded. Hitler forced west to ally with Stalin and then lost the war with him.

LOL. Why? How die Hitler force them to ally with Stalin? Also, they would not have stood a chance against Stalin without the Germans.

"By 1929 only a small number of Sudeten German deputies, most of them members of the German National Party (propertied classes) and the Sudeten German National Socialist Party (Sudetendeutsche nationalsozialistische Partei), remained in opposition to the Czech government."

LOL
The German version of Wikipedia reads slightly different.
Fact is that especially in the beginning the Germans in Sudetenland were suffering from supression. They did not even have the same rights as the other people.
They were also the vast majority in this part of the country.
After WW2 it was even worse for them of course.
Oh well, I am sick of this topic now. Believe what you want. Just dont spill your crap in my presence please.

[Luzr]

Maybe from Roosvelt?

Probably. Some powers in the US actively supported Stalin. Roosevelt was rallying against the Germans and for Stalin.
Isnt it odd that everyone declared war on Hitler for invading Poland, but nobody declared war on Stalin for doing the very same thing?

Is not that quite simple and obvious? Hitler directly threatened western Europe. Besides, he was allied with Japan and Italy, and those were attacking England and U.S. territories.

Probably not. But without Hitler, he would never succeeded. Hitler forced west to ally with Stalin and then lost the war with him.

LOL. Why? How die Hitler force them to ally with Stalin?

Let me see. What about by attacking France and England?

Also, they would not have stood a chance against Stalin without the Germans.

Well, that is major question, but I think you understimate powers that have been in action.

I would say U.S. alone was able to defeat USSR. In fact, for U.S. the whole war effort was relatively easy, considering the fact they have fought with all members of Axis at the same time.

Fact is that especially in the beginning the Germans in Sudetenland were suffering from supression. They did not even have the same rights as the other people.

Well, what rights they did not had?

They were also the vast majority in this part of the country.

True. But usually they were vast majority in certain cities, surounded by Czech countryside.

After WW2 it was even worse for them of course.

Correct. What happened then was pretty ugly.

[choff]

Didn't Hitler mention somewhere that he attacked Russia because Germany needed, 'LebenStraum.'

[IntLibber]

Didn't Hitler mention somewhere that he attacked Russia because Germany needed, 'LebenStraum.'

Yup. Though his big screwup was in not being adamant enough about the Japs attacking Russia through manchuria and mongolia. The Japanese actually had a plan for this, which they weighed against the plan for the East Asian Coprosperity Sphere plan that they actually decided on which required they attack the US.

If they had instead gone north and attacked Russia, the US would not have entered the war in time to save Britain or Stalin. Attacking the US in Pearl Harbor and the Philippines was the fatal mistake of WWII.

I've always thought that this possibility would make for a good alternate history novel. It would have the Nazis and Japanese splitting Eurasia in an alliance that would control most of the world's trade, and would hem in and encircle the Anglosphere, trapping the West in a condition of diminishing economic returns, i.e. an inverse of the economic isolation we dealt to the warsaw pact during the Cold War.

[Luzr]

Didn't Hitler mention somewhere that he attacked Russia because Germany needed, 'LebenStraum.'

Sure, he was talking about attacking USSR since 1925.

But looks like it meant nothing:

The Germans never wanted the war. They invaded Poland to take what was rightfully theirs and everybody declared war on them. Hitler begged Churchill for peace and Churchills response was: Unconditional surrender.
The Russians were about to roll over Europe. They had already thousands of tanks (with the GM stickers on them) built in factories that Roosevelt had paid for line up to conquer Europe. Hadnt it been for Hitlers preemptive strike, all of Europe would have been communistic less than a year later. I have talked to eye wittnesses that said that Hitler was crying tears when he learned of Stalins betrayal (they had a pact). The Germans had high flying transport gliders with high resolution cameras on board. Those happened to take pictures of the almost finished tanks that were lined up already. Tens of thousands of those. Do you realy think that Stalin only started to build those after the war with the Germans had started? The Russian industry was incapable of that.

What a betrayal! Hitler was openly speaking about attacking Russia for almost 15 year and then was crying tears when he found that Stalin had built an army!

Oh, sorry. Actually, Roosvelt has built the army for Russians!

Actually, thinking about it, I now understand a concept. Germans never wanted a war. They just wanted what was rightfully theirs...

[MSimon]

Actually, thinking about it, I now understand a concept. Germans never wanted a war. They just wanted what was rightfully theirs...

As I understand it Hitler was more than willing to accept Europe without a fight. And he certainly wasn't interested in having to fight to keep it. That warmonger Churchill ruined his plans.

[Skipjack]

Let me see. What about by attacking France and England?

Uhhm, that was AFTER THEY declared war on Germany, yes?

Didn't Hitler mention somewhere that he attacked Russia because Germany needed, 'LebenStraum.

If anything, it is Lebensraum, without the "t". Lebenstraum would be something different.

I would say U.S. alone was able to defeat USSR. In fact, for U.S. the whole war effort was relatively easy, considering the fact they have fought with all members of Axis at the same time.

Who said that the US had an interest in fighting the USSR at all? From all that I know they were actually supporting their interest.
Roosevelt was a leftist after all.

Well, what rights they did not had?

They were not allowed to take part in elections and when they demonstrated, many were shot by Czech police.

But usually they were vast majority in certain cities, surounded by Czech countryside.

They were the majority, period.
The annexed area had 3.63 million inhabitants, of that were 2.9 million Germans. Many of those 700,000 Czechs had not lived there at the end of WW1. They were moved there later to progress a so called "degermanization" of the area. Now how you want to progress a degermanization in an area with the vast majority being Germans, you can read up on "Benes decretes", which is what happened after WW2.

Actually, thinking about it, I now understand a concept. Germans never wanted a war. They just wanted what was rightfully theirs...

True. That is exactly how it was.
Hitler != the Germans...

[MSimon]

Uhhm, that was AFTER THEY declared war on Germany, yes?

If only France and England hadn't kept their promise to Poland the war could have been avoided.

[Luzr]

Well, what rights they did not had?

They were not allowed to take part in elections and when they demonstrated, many were shot by Czech police.

Really? References?

As soon as 1930, after they stopped refusing proposals, Germans were in CZ governemnt.

It is true than in 1919, about 80 of them was shot when they were fighting against CZ military. It was about the same time CZ military had to crush attempt to establish communist republic in Slovakia and other uprisings.

[Skipjack]

If only France and England hadn't kept their promise to Poland the war could have been avoided

They did not bother to declare war on the Soviets when they invaded Poland. Weird, right?

Am 16. Februar 1919 fanden in Deutschösterreich die Wahlen zur Konstituierenden Nationalversammlung statt. Die Deutschen Böhmens, Mährens und Österreichisch-Schlesiens wurden von Tschechen daran gehindert, diese Wahlen auch in ihren Siedlungsgebieten durchzuführen. Am 4. März 1919 trat die Konstituierende Nationalversammlung zu ihrer ersten Sitzung in Wien zusammen. An vielen Orten im deutschen Siedlungsgebiet fanden aus diesem Anlass Demonstrationen für das Selbstbestimmungsrecht und die Zugehörigkeit zu Deutschösterreich statt.[3] Dabei wurden von tschechischen Gendarmen 54 Deutsche[4] und zwei Tschechen erschossen. Am 5. März 1919 rechnete Karl Renner in der Nationalversammlung vor, dass hier 3,5 Millionen Deutschen das Selbstbestimmungsrecht vorenthalten worden sei[5].

Translate it yourself, I dont feel like it anymore.

[MSimon]

They did not bother to declare war on the Soviets when they invaded Poland. Weird, right?

Germany was easier to reach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War