Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

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choff
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby choff » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:41 pm

CHoff

NotAPhysicist
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby NotAPhysicist » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:22 am

I'm going to go with yes, I appreciate this is a gut reaction.

While I'm certain there is unpleasant stuff associated with solar panel production and disposal I'm also certain that there is active research to reduce and mitigate this. I'd also suggest that the lethality of solar waste is somewhat less than that of what is produced in the nuclear industry.

The argument in the article seems to be "The cost of digging a deep hole big enough to put all the nuclear waste in is less than the cost of digging a deep hole big enough to fit all the solar waste in." - which I rather suspect fails to account for types and quantities of waste and the fact we seem to be incapable of actually doing this even if it is ostensibly technical feasible.

I'm not against nuclear, not at all, but we also shouldn't ignore its very real problems.
Since I'm not a climate change skeptic I'm actually very pro nuclear, it is certainly a better idea than all this ridiculous coal, oil and gas. But it also has a tendency to go horribly wrong and produce awful waste and there is only so much we can do to mitigate that - solar by contrast seems more likely to be controllably awful and the level of awfulness seems likely to be more reducible.

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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby williatw » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:45 pm

NotAPhysicist wrote:I'm not against nuclear, not at all, but we also shouldn't ignore its very real problems.
Since I'm not a climate change skeptic I'm actually very pro nuclear, it is certainly a better idea than all this ridiculous coal, oil and gas. But it also has a tendency to go horribly wrong and produce awful waste and there is only so much we can do to mitigate that - solar by contrast seems more likely to be controllably awful and the level of awfulness seems likely to be more reducible.


Nuclear construction reaches 25-year high

The nuclear industry brought more than 9 GWe of new plant on line last year, the largest annual increase in 25 years, according to a new World Nuclear Association report, putting it on track to achieve the Harmony goal of providing 25% of electricity in 2050 using 1000 GWe of new capacity.


Nuclear constructions is advancing apiece, but not in the US or the west in general, being led by of course China:

Growth in nuclear power is being led by China, where five of the ten new reactors are located. "This trend is likely to continue in the coming years with around a third of reactors currently under construction being located in China," said Agneta Rising, the Association's director-general.



http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-Nu ... 06171.html

Although to his credit Trump is trying:

US plan for energy dominance includes reviving nuclear energy

The United States announced six goals to achieve global energy dominance.

1. Revive and expand nuclear energy sector
2. Address barriers to financing of overseas coal energy plants
3. Build an oil pipeline to Mexico
4. Sell more American natural gas to South Korea
5. Approve two long-term applications to export additional natural gas from the Lake Charles LNG terminal in Louisiana
6. Release new offshore oil and gas leasing program.



https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/06/u ... nergy.html

paperburn1
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby paperburn1 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:01 am

The Energy Collective article doesn’t clearly distinguish “waste” from “toxic waste.” So, wherever the phrase “toxic waste” appears in this post, it probably should have been written as “toxic and/or other waste products.” still a interesting article even if it was financed by British petroleum and may have been biased. Still the number look to be within the realms of probability and I as a solar type guy can not think of any disposal programs right off the top of my head; A very valid point.
But once again it does not address solar thermal and it 95 plus recyclability of that type of solar. Also there are some new processes that will reduce waste by factors for PV https://www.inc.com/kevin-j-ryan/how-this-bill-nye-endorsed-startup-is-changing-solar-energy.html?utm_campaign=prospecting&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=facebook
There is also the fact that solar is not suited for heavy industry so we are going to need some of those pesky beta rays or gamma rays bouncing around for the foreseeable future and I have no problem with that issue. I like my AC and refrigerator.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby MSimon » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:38 pm

The real problem with solar is day/night. i.e. batteries or other backup.

When the intermittentancy and day/night are included in the cost of solar energy it becomes cost prohibitive for general energy production.
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby TDPerk » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:02 pm

MSimon wrote:The real problem with solar is day/night. i.e. batteries or other backup.

When the intermittentancy and day/night are included in the cost of solar energy it becomes cost prohibitive for general energy production.


No, it depends on location. Batteries get cheaper every year, and so does solar.
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby MSimon » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:55 am

TDPerk wrote:
MSimon wrote:The real problem with solar is day/night. i.e. batteries or other backup.

When the intermittentancy and day/night are included in the cost of solar energy it becomes cost prohibitive for general energy production.


No, it depends on location. Batteries get cheaper every year, and so does solar.


Yes. Now how big does the battery need to be? A 1 hour battery - not too bad. A 10 hour battery? A 100 hour battery? And how much excess capacity do you need to keep the 100 hour battery charged? And when the battery wears out?

We are quite a ways from making solar work. I wouldn't mind if this technology was kept to .1% of grid power while development was going on. When it gets up to 10% the cost of electrical power goes up significantly. Cheap energy is what drives current civilization. Right now we are going in the opposite direction because politicians have no idea what they are doing - besides funding their friends.
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby TDPerk » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:31 pm

MSimon wrote:
TDPerk wrote:
MSimon wrote:The real problem with solar is day/night. i.e. batteries or other backup.

When the intermittentancy and day/night are included in the cost of solar energy it becomes cost prohibitive for general energy production.


No, it depends on location. Batteries get cheaper every year, and so does solar.


Yes. Now how big does the battery need to be? A 1 hour battery - not too bad. A 10 hour battery? A 100 hour battery? And how much excess capacity do you need to keep the 100 hour battery charged? And when the battery wears out?

We are quite a ways from making solar work. I wouldn't mind if this technology was kept to .1% of grid power while development was going on. When it gets up to 10% the cost of electrical power goes up significantly. Cheap energy is what drives current civilization. Right now we are going in the opposite direction because politicians have no idea what they are doing - besides funding their friends.


No, because it's already true there are locations where the cheapest way to have power is solar/battery/inverter systems. Are you seriously arguing to the contrary?
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby MSimon » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:30 pm

TDPerk wrote:
MSimon wrote:
TDPerk wrote:
No, because it's already true there are locations where the cheapest way to have power is solar/battery/inverter systems. Are you seriously arguing to the contrary?


The only way it is cheapest currently is if there is no grid tie economically convenient. In that case yes.
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choff
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby choff » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:13 pm

Mass layoffs at Telsa, management exodus.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-1 ... ds-workers
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby Betruger » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:00 pm

That ZeroHedge website hardly seems impartial.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby TDPerk » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:23 pm

Betruger wrote:That ZeroHedge website hardly seems impartial.


Not only is it not impartial, it is filled with the most unthinking set of conspiracy theory catastrophists this side of 4chan. These are the idiots who claimed un-broken, un-openable windows in the Mandalay Bay hotel were a 2nd shooter in Las Vegas--despite the windows being under continuous observation and being un-broken and un-opened the whole time.

Tesla annually lets go of it's worst performers at all levels, it's not a new thing.
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby Betruger » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:48 am

Haha. Sorry that was my understatement tone.

That website showed up in my mobile Chrome suggested news feed less than a month ago. I read 1 article halfway before scrolling down and seeing the fine print etc, to confirm the smell of something rotten.

That site, and Salon, are the two sites I've mentally flagged recently as unreadable RE: SpaceX/Musk.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

paperburn1
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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby paperburn1 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:04 pm

Musk sees the storm on the horizon. His layoff is slightly larger than one percent. Tariff on cheap quality chinese solar cell is happening. Industrial power generation can not see a cost effective way to integrate solar power into the system without dropping profit margins to record low levels. Cost of solar will be at an economical advantage in ten years due to dropping cost and the better battery systems emerging on to the market as well as the traditional electric generation cost doubling in 15 years.. Typical big boy politics protecting the donors by this administration(and past as well) are going to provide protection to the current power industry via tariff and regulation to save their backsides and keep their political donations. Tesla has all ready proven in practace that solar can supply island states with a cheaper more reliable power. Now australia is on board . Plans for new battery factories are past the permitting stage and into construction. People are building their own power walls with these batteries, just look at you tube and there are dozen of how to videos. These systems are not being made by joe jackleg but qualified engineers. ROI is favoring the common guy. I myself am installing a solar thermal heating system that will cost 1500 dollars us and and operation cost of 10 dollars a month.(latitude 35)
Again the window has opened for small scale independence and we all need to grab the brass ring while it is still in reach. My new "mantra" you don't have to be self sufficient with everything just one thing and do it well.
(why are we sending so much to ITER when we know it will never be net power in this generation, why not instead sponsor all the darks horses and we probably would have fusion and if not that then thorium fission.)
I am no fool, I understand we will need mass power generation for heavy industry. we will need mass power to supply the new city states that are emerging for the first time. A strong military runs on power. We just need to start planning for the future rather than the next board room meeting.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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Re: Elon Musk Is In Bed With Crooks

Postby MSimon » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:14 pm

paperburn1 wrote: Cost of solar will be at an economical advantage in ten years due to dropping cost and the better battery systems emerging on to the market as well as the traditional electric generation cost doubling in 15 years..

The problem with solar is that it is intermittent. To be economical from 4 hours a day of production costs will need to decline by a factor of 6 from current costs. And that doesn't count the batteries for the 20 hours a day with low power production.

Wind is even worse because production is not assured on any given day (or days). An even bigger battery will be needed.

All this came about because the alternative energy (AE) guys (what is the alternative to no energy?) got law makers passing "take or pay" laws. The grid has to absorb the AE even if there is no need for it. For the original grid, suppliers had to contract for X megawatts at y time for z time length. If the AE guys had to live by those rules they would have gone broke years ago.

Take or pay is destroying the economics of base load plants. And once those are gone? I see a South Australia in our future.

Look at what California has done to the price of electricity by favoring AE. Germany is having a similar problem.
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